The problem as I see it is politicians don’t want to be the person legislating prison reform when it is so easy for their opponents to blame a horrendous crime on their “soft on crime” stance. I do think prison is at least a partial deterrent for me and my actions but it’s certainly not my main motivation for my actions. The problem with prison is the permanent stigma and lack of options for those with criminal records. Without much hope for success it’s easy to see why folks would be likely to reoffend.
Re:School or Prison
by SpicyLemonZest on Friday January 01, 2021 @10:42PM
(#25610176)
On the other hand, a lot of the "tough on crime" messaging comes from the unique context of the 70s and 80s, when crime was much higher than today and continually rising. I'm hopeful that prison reform is a much more politically palatable message now that crime has been trending down for decades.
Crime may be trending down, but I think the perception is that it's more common - I remember reading the results of multiple polls to that effect over the last decade. People consistently believe that crime has gotten worse. Part of there blame was placed on the news media overreporting crime stories (as what else are they going to talk about when nothing exciting is happening?) which skews public perception of the actual scale of the problem.
Re:School or Prison
by SpicyLemonZest on Saturday January 02, 2021 @12:21AM
(#25610618)
The polling I'm familiar with (e.g. https://news.gallup.com/poll/1603/crime.aspx) indicates that there's been a significant shift. In particular I'd point at the "too tough, not tough enough or about right" question; in 1992, the idea that we shouldn't be tougher on crime was quite radical and the idea that we're too tough on crime was practically nonexistent.
That particular question has shifted, sure. But in the early 90s, wasn't crime at historic highs in the country? In any case, it has shifted to the point that only twice as many people believe that we should be tougher on crime rather than more lenient. But look at the chart for the question "Is there more crime in the U.S. than there was a year ago, or less?" It shows that "More" dominates "Less" at around 65% - 20%, and has done so since the turn of the millenium. The majority still believe that crime gets worse, year on year.
Re:School or Prison
by Merman_Mike on Friday January 01, 2021 @09:51PM
(#25609869)
Thanks for posting in this thread. I've read all of your comments.
If prison is as horrible as you describe, why do you think it's not much of a deterrent?
Re:School or Prison
by KittenInABox on Friday January 01, 2021 @10:20PM
(#25610066)
Generally, deterrents such as extremely harsh prison sentences have no evidence that they're actually effective. Many nonviolent crimes such as the kind associated with addiction will occur as a result the illness. Other violent crimes such as murder occur compulsively, and therefore do not respond to rational thinking such as "jail really sucks bro".
Think of it like this though: If harsh, dehumanizing punishments were an effective deterrent, crimes would've gone up when we stopped chopping off people's limbs for stealing, and in fact we'd have more stealing in modern day than at any time in history because public mutilation is not an acceptable punishment now.
Re:School or Prison
by slowmovintarget on Friday January 01, 2021 @10:52PM
(#25610225)
Because people who commit crimes tend to think that they won't get caught. For repeat offenders, they either think they won't get caught, or if they do, they "know how to do time."
Granted this was from studies done in the 70s and 80s that I recall from prepping for a debate on the death penalty.
So when I talk about deterrence I'm mostly talking about reoffenders. I.e, the prisoners I talked to coming back. I think they're more likely to commit crimes after prison, not less!!
Do you think people would lie, in a heavily monitored prison, about wanting to never come back to prison because they'll "die in glory" in a gun fight against the cops next time so they can't be arrested? Or about becoming a drug kingpin? Sounds like you think I'm saying these people were claiming nice things about themselves, but really they're mostly claiming quite bad things if it makes me think they're going to be back and were strongly negatively influenced by peers in prison.
On the topic of regular people who prison serves as a deterrent for, I'd look at other countries where crime rates are lower without the same hideous institution. Clearly it's not just horrible prisons which prevent noncriminals from committing crime, since so many countries don't have that? I guess that's up for debate.