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Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by Andrew_nenakhov on Thursday December 31, 2020 @07:27PM (#25599061)
Personal experience: not only bitcoin was the only practical way I was able to receive funds in Russia from an Indonesian client, it was cheaper than just one leg of converting Indonesian currency (to USD).

Think of it. Buying bitcoin, sending and selling resulted being cheaper than just buying USD. The spread was that much lower. (It was in a relatively static price period in summer 2016)

And regular banks just didn't do such transactions between Russia and Indonesia, like, nope. And PayPal was somehow banning the client for some reason.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by gruez on Thursday December 31, 2020 @07:31PM (#25599097)
>And PayPal was somehow banning the client for some reason.

Maybe the russian was on OFAC's sanctioned entities list? (only half joking)

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by Andrew_nenakhov on Thursday December 31, 2020 @08:29PM (#25599757)
The banned person was Indonesian. Something something his bank account. (One more reason for me why payment system of the future must be permissionless. Like, you know, bitcoin)
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by sangnoir on Friday January 01, 2021 @01:35AM (#25601363)
> One more reason for me why payment system of the future must be permissionless. Like, you know, bitcoin

That's not possible with a public ledger and current state of analysis - instead of proactive cancellation of the transaction on the legacy banking system, you'll get a delayed reaction from the authorities. When you file your tax return you'll get a notice to explain transaction ID 0x...34 to a certain banned individual. So it will be about as "permissionless" as tax-fraud: you will only be able to get away with it for a while, and I don't doubt there will be future analytical tools (and laws) that will make tracing payments even easier. It is politically untenable for bitcoin payments to be opaque when "Funding Terrorism" is a high-priority security issue.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by candiodari on Friday January 01, 2021 @05:36AM (#25602269)
Bitcoin payments might be traceable from wallet to wallet, but wallets don't have a name on them. Not even for governments. So if anyone takes basic precautions, you can't trace them.

Although I assure you a normal person can't read bitcoin transactions lists like they can a bank statement, and this goes for people working at the tax office too. And they can't forbid those transactions, either. It raises the bar significantly on Tax offices, and therefore means less enforcement.

And if need be, there are several anonymous cryptocurrencies that would love nothing more than to replace Bitcoin, and of course they will as soon as governments actually start tracing payments.

https://coinmarketcap.com/alexandria/article/is-cryptocurren...

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday January 01, 2021 @06:08AM (#25602421)
That's actually can be circumvented rather trivially. Wallets are anonymous, and you can just do some mixer transactions off chain. Wallet A pays to mixer M, mixer's address N sends funds to wallets B and C minus comission. In effect A paid B (and C), and nothing links them to each other. Schemes can get even less transparent with Lightning network.
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by orestarod on Friday January 01, 2021 @01:17PM (#25605265)
Who owns the mixer?
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by gruez on Friday January 01, 2021 @01:44PM (#25605507)
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by dwild on Friday January 01, 2021 @01:31PM (#25605398)
> When you file your tax return you'll get a notice to explain transaction ID 0x...34 to a certain banned individual. S

We were talking about PayPal banning someone and you equate that to tax authorities banning someone?!

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by literallycancer on Friday January 01, 2021 @07:53AM (#25602922)
There are already ways to avoid that outcome today. You can use a fresh wallet and launder the money through a mixer like the other poster suggests, but you can also use shielded transactions like Zcash has (based on zero knowledge proofs) or coins where transactions are private if there is enough volume like Monero.
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by eli on Thursday December 31, 2020 @08:26PM (#25599732)
Or just had a similar name or used a “bad” word. The data quality for those lists is very poor.
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by yarcob on Friday January 01, 2021 @04:49AM (#25602069)
Did you actually try multiple banks? Is the banking ststem really that broken in Indonesia?

My experience is that bank fees vary greatly.

My (limited) experience with US banks is that they have huge hidden fees and you get really bad currency exchange rates. I'm talking about 8% of funds miraculously disappearing during currency exchange. I don't understand why anybody would bother going via USD.

My Austrian bank on the other hand has much better rates and low fees. I think it was less than 1% for transfers of a few thousand USD last time I checked.

And finally, there are services like Transferwise; I just checked and they show rates of 1.5 - 2% for converting IDR to RUB.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by dwild on Friday January 01, 2021 @01:42PM (#25605495)
> Did you actually try multiple banks? Is the banking ststem really that broken in Indonesia?

I like how you consider that opening an account on another bank was both cheaper and easier than using Bitcoin.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by yarcob on Friday January 01, 2021 @03:36PM (#25606775)
Opening bank accounts is pretty cheap and easy in Austria.

I don't know what it's like in Indonesia, hence my question.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by tekknik on Friday January 01, 2021 @09:57AM (#25603652)
> My (limited) experience with US banks is that they have huge hidden fees and you get really bad currency exchange rates. I'm talking about 8% of funds miraculously disappearing during currency exchange. I don't understand why anybody would bother going via USD.

You need to shop around for a better US bank account. This is not a common thing for us to do so if you pick up a random bank then you’ll be paying close to 10% in various conversion and fx fees. There are definitely US banks that charge 1%, some even 0%.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by yarcob on Friday January 01, 2021 @03:26PM (#25606649)
The problem in that case was with a partners bank, not my own. The solution was to request payments in USD rather than EUR and have my bank do the conversion.
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by Siira on Saturday January 02, 2021 @05:29AM (#25611800)
> That broken

The crux of the issue. It’s tragic how the new woke fads exaggerate and even imagine plights for minorities near themselves, while completely ignoring big crises further away.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by thegjp210 on Thursday December 31, 2020 @07:49PM (#25599322)
how much counterparty risk does the rapid price fluctuation result in? Can't imagine pricing a contract in bitcoin, as someone's getting screwed at payment if the BTC/fiat rate has changed during the lifetime of the contract
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by Andrew_nenakhov on Thursday December 31, 2020 @08:27PM (#25599743)
We just accepted the price of bitcoin in USD at the time the client bought BTC, and I accepted the risks of fluctuating price to myself. I actually gained somewhat, though, way less than if I'd just hold those coins till today. :)
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by cambalache on Thursday December 31, 2020 @07:58PM (#25599422)
You can peg the contract in USD (or better put, the original price was in USD) and just accept the bitcoins within a very small window, say 30 min/1h.
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by TheCoelacanth on Thursday December 31, 2020 @08:27PM (#25599745)
Don't you have a similar problem with Russian currency? From Jun 2014 to Jan 2015, it lost more than half of it's value relative to USD.
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by Andrew_nenakhov on Thursday December 31, 2020 @08:39PM (#25599856)
In the past 110 years Russian currency depreciated against USD at a something like trillion times.

It's a safe bet that it'll continue the trend (with some occasional and not too long lapses of stae slowish decline), and actually bitcoin is a rather safe bet against rouble. After all, it's not backed by Putin's government!

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by arcticbull on Friday January 01, 2021 @03:43AM (#25601788)
This is an utterly ridiculous statement. Not only is the trillion fold devaluation not at all a reasonable assessment of the situation, the exchange rate only matters at the time of the exchange, not after. That's the point.
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday January 01, 2021 @06:03AM (#25602393)
I was answering to a person who said that RUB lost half of its value against USD in a span of a year. I just pointed that it is a part of a general trend, what do you find ridiculous about that?

Btw, 'a trillion times' is an understatement. Exact figure in 2014 was... 57 460 000 000 000 000 (fifty seven quadrillion four hundred and sixty trillion) times [1], and just add some more since that time. Still thinking that bitcoin is a risky currency, huh?

[1]: https://zhartun.me/2014/12/usd.html

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by arcticbull on Friday January 01, 2021 @09:05AM (#25603317)
Yes of course it's the risky investment. BTC has seen 3 drawdowns of -86% in the last couple of years, and also, what happened to XRP shows that the football can be deflated in seconds with the right SEC memo.

Currency isn't an investment. Currency has never been an investment. You're not supposed to hold currency. You're supposed to use currency to buy assets. A spot exchange rate means absolutely nothing. This is ECON-101.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday January 01, 2021 @10:02AM (#25603682)
Is gold an asset or a currency? Now it is definitely the former, but throughout history it was mostly an asset and a currency, with rather vague lines between them.

Bitcoin is not a USD replacement. It's more of a gold replacement: finite supply, great malleability, but with modern benefits regarding storage and transfer.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by arcticbull on Friday January 01, 2021 @11:50AM (#25604523)
> Bitcoin is not a USD replacement. It's more of a gold replacement: finite supply, great malleability, but with modern benefits regarding storage and transfer.

This is an opinion that Bitcoin advocates throw out every time someone criticizes Bitcoin's ability to be a currency. As soon as someone criticizes its ability to be an asset, someone trots out that its actually been a currency this whole time. It's bad at both.

It's bad at both in no small part because it tries to bring back the asset-backed currency approach, which was dreadful last time around, and that's why it was ended.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday January 01, 2021 @01:04PM (#25605147)
> This is an opinion that Bitcoin advocates throw out every time someone criticizes Bitcoin's ability to be a currency.

This 'opinion' comparing Bitcoin properties to Gold appeared before Bitcoin antagonists appeared. It is part of a design.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by arcticbull on Friday January 01, 2021 @02:35PM (#25606030)
The white paper is literally titled “A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System” and the first line of the abstract states “ A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a financial institution.”

For this purpose it is abjectly poorly suited.

Neither the word “gold” nor “store of value” nor anything else of the sort appear in the abstract.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by Andrew_nenakhov on Friday January 01, 2021 @04:19PM (#25607291)
Well, I have read said whitepaper, but thanks for reciting it once again.

I have also read an extremely early mailing lists that appeared long before bitcoin started to get derided by critics like you, and guess what, it was those comparisson I'm referring to. And since you started reciting old texts, i'll go for it too.

Gold and Bitcoin are very similar in all their properties regarding use it as a wealth storage and transfer, with two stark differences: unlike Bitcoin, gold can be used to create physical objects. Like, a ring. Unlike gold, Bitcoin can be near-instantly transferred to another person. Everything else is irrelevant. Gold is valued not because it has some inherent value in it, the price depends only on belief that it has value. Same with bitcoin.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by arcticbull on Friday January 01, 2021 @10:58PM (#25610263)
Well gold has intrinsic value (industrial processes for one) and Bitcoin doesn’t so there’s one difference :) not that intrinsic value dominates the price of gold of course.

Oh and Bitcoin wastes as much power as the entire country of Chile just sitting there existing and being speculated on at a rate of 7tx/sec, and not solving any real problems. I’d say that’s the only thing that matters.

I suppose time will tell.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by candiodari on Friday January 01, 2021 @05:37AM (#25602274)
every currency transaction creates this risk. Nothing to do with Bitcoin. I suppose you could say that this is a problem Bitcoin doesn't fix ... but judging by the Bitcoin market cap, it's not as much as a problem as normal banks.
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by rualca on Friday January 01, 2021 @05:56AM (#25602354)
> every currency transaction creates this risk.

This is a disingenuous straw man and a desperate attempt to brush away Bitcoin's failure as currency. The OP explicitly referred to cryptocurrencies' inherent high volatility, and volatility is not a mere transaction risk. Seeing your debt explode, because you either borrowed or deferred payments, due to cryotocurrency volatility is not a transaction risk. It's simply the fact that cryptocurrency fails as being money.

Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by cpursley on Thursday December 31, 2020 @09:13PM (#25600128)
What's the easiest, cheapest and legal way to convert Bitcoin into rub?
Re:Bitcoin is a disaster by qwantim1 on Friday January 01, 2021 @01:04AM (#25601262)
Since “find a geeky massage therapist” is not helpful, my guess would be to convert BC -> USD -> RUB.