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Re:Why Jira Sucks by gurkendoktor on Thursday December 31, 2020 @02:05PM (#25595914)
> And developers are expensive as hell.

Not expensive enough apparently, because management will happily tolerate meetings where nothing happens except the whole team fighting Jira. I recently had to replace my web browser because it reduced the time to load a ticket from 4 minutes to 10 seconds due to some caching issue. Entering a date/time on a non-English locale never works. Whenever I try to leave a comment with technical details, I probably spam the whole team with lots of "Ticket was edited" notifications because there is no logic to Atlassian's markup systems.

I feel that Jira's configurability makes it like desktop Linux 20 years ago. Everybody swears it's rock-solid, beautiful, and easy to configure. Then when you ask anyone to have a look at their specific setup, they'll cover the screen with their bodies and panic, "ah no, I kind of messed everything up recently, haha, but you can't really blame the software for that, can you? Everyone else's installation is super clean though". After working with ~10 different Jira installations, I'm still looking for one where that's true.

</rant>

And as someone who enjoys documenting their own work for fellow developers and other roles, I don't even think Jira helps. Most discussions will still happen offline and without documentation, especially from non-technical roles who hate typing.

Re:Why Jira Sucks by debaserab2 on Thursday December 31, 2020 @03:40PM (#25596874)
> I feel that Jira's configurability makes it like desktop Linux 20 years ago. Everybody swears it's rock-solid, beautiful, and easy to configure. Then when you ask anyone to have a look at their specific setup, they'll cover the screen with their bodies and panic, "ah no, I kind of messed everything up recently, haha, but you can't really blame the software for that, can you? Everyone else's installation is super clean though". After working with ~10 different Jira installations, I'm still looking for one where that's true.

I kinda feel this way about every project management tool, be it a personal or professional one. You're always chasing the dragon for how clean it was when you originally configured it.

Re:Why Jira Sucks by ypeterholmes on Thursday December 31, 2020 @04:22PM (#25597296)
Redmine is great.
Re:Why Jira Sucks by jvvlimme on Thursday December 31, 2020 @04:36PM (#25597431)
No, it’s not. From a Product Owner point of view, it’s a piece of shit. Hard to set priorities, hard to follow progress. I’ll take jira any day.
Re:Why Jira Sucks by bendauphinee on Friday January 01, 2021 @02:16AM (#25601502)
From a dev perspective, I see your point. Redmine was great for the reason that we documented a lot better inside tickets because it was lower friction.
Re:Why Jira Sucks by orzig on Thursday December 31, 2020 @02:09PM (#25595976)
My primary advantage over the Scrum Master that I replaced was hand writing all the required JIRA changes during the meeting, and doing them on my own time later. I was a hero! Highly recommended.
Re:Why Jira Sucks by josephg on Thursday December 31, 2020 @05:03PM (#25597696)
That would be great. On a client project a few years ago I effectively bullied the product owner into doing that.

We were a few weeks away from a launch. I had sat down with our designer and we made a list together of about 30 changes we needed to make (“this is the wrong blue. This is 2px too big. Etc). The product owner wanted me to put all the changes through our normal process - make a jira issue for each one and we can do task estimation as a team and assign them, and so on. But most of them were tasks that would take a few minutes at most. (Some of the problems I fixed live while working with the designer). Our launch deadline was fast approaching and it would have taken more time to write a good jira ticket than it would to fix most of the issues - let alone discussing them as a group to estimate. While arguing he ended up showing his cards by admitting that the main reason he wanted everything in jira was for reporting. How else would upper management know that we were making progress? I said that sounded like his job, not mine. And he begrudgingly agreed and took my plain text list and dutifully retyped everything one by one into jira tickets. And then marked them all complete a week later when I’d fixed them all.

I think that experience killed the last bit of respect I had for Agile as a methodology - at least as it’s practiced in the wild. If we were using something lighter - like trello - I don’t think I would have resisted so much.

Re:Why Jira Sucks by signal11 on Friday January 01, 2021 @02:48AM (#25601590)
Great story, but re the “killed respect for Agile” bit:

Agile done right is all about less process. It’s right there on the Agile Manifesto:

> Individuals and interactions over processes and tools

I’d also read https://agilemanifesto.org/principles.html for an illustration of what is considered valuable — especially the bit about simplicity which process heavy (aka fake-agile) agile consultants totally miss; also the bits about what constitutes project progress & how to most efficiently convey information.

You should be able to tailor your agile processes to what makes sense for you. Following the herd and insisting on agile ceremonies “because everyone else does it / someone told us to”, even to your team’s detriment, is cargo-culting.

In your case you clearly tailored your process to something that improved your efficiency and met your reporting requirements, so, as far as I’m concerned, you’re doing agile “right”.

Re:Why Jira Sucks by josephg on Friday January 01, 2021 @02:51PM (#25606232)
Oh, I’ve read all that. But I feel like there’s two agile methodologies - one that the authors intended, a lightweight adaptive attitude where you ground out your process based on what works with your team. And then there’s Agile: The Process as prescribed by agile consultants who go to agile seminars. This agile insists on daily standup, point based estimation, velocity tracking, jira (for some reason), etc. Otherwise you are Doing Agile Wrong, and you will be cast off the holy mountain.

I get the sense the authors of agile used words like “scrum” because they imagine software development like a full contact sport; where everyone is fully engaged with all their senses to truly be aware of what’s happening, what’s needed and what is the most important thing to work on. The cargo culting agile consultant approach always feels like an attempt to make software into a repeatable assembly line, and make software engineers into factory workers.

Re:Why Jira Sucks by signal11 on Friday January 01, 2021 @06:29PM (#25608463)
Fair enough, but that's just really shitty consultants. These days practitioners (the ones I run into anyway) are quite conscious of process overhead. It helps that many are into Lean as well.

FWIW, shitty agile consultants have had plenty of pushback too, with comedy sites like https://www.halfarsedagilemanifesto.org/ being set up to point out their buffoonery. I do suggest laughing in their faces when they pull out tripe like that. Sometimes their excuse is, 'well, we don't work for a startup, we're a regulated business' -- well, it's still tripe, there are plenty of regulated businesses with lightweight agile processes.

My favourite piece of writing on this, in fact, comes from the US Defense Innovation Board, and is called "Detecting Agile BS"[1]. Their recommendations may not 100% work for your organization, and that's okay -- tailor it with an eye to outcomes for your team.

[1] https://media.defense.gov/2018/Oct/09/2002049591/-1/-1/0/DIB...

Re:Why Jira Sucks by HelloNurse on Friday January 01, 2021 @12:24PM (#25604814)
Playing the devil's advocate, maybe detailed reporting to the boss is useful and worth doing. Probably the product owner's job and not yours, but not necessarily a bad (or, specifically, not agile enough) way to work.

I'm familiar with using Jira for enough customer support requests to require a full time ticket wrangler position, and closing tickets timely with accurate reports is often more important than the requested fix or support intervention: looking good with the IT managers that are, for all practical purposes, our customers has a higher priority, for everybody, than helping a random end user with a noncritical problem.

Re:Why Jira Sucks by josephg on Friday January 01, 2021 @03:09PM (#25606458)
I disagree. We were a product team. Our primary responsibility to the company was to ship working code, not open and close jira tickets. Would management have forgiven poor reporting in the scramble leading up to an on time / on budget launch? Yes. Would management have preferred a delayed release in exchange for more tickets visible in jira? No. I’m sure my manager could pass it off and say he did his job (look at the velocity graph!). But we would be failing our responsibility to the company.
Re:Why Jira Sucks by firepoet on Thursday December 31, 2020 @05:40PM (#25598004)
That is such bad Agile. No wonder people have such bad feelings about it. :-(
Re:Why Jira Sucks by kiksy on Thursday December 31, 2020 @02:18PM (#25596075)
Nice. This would likely solve a huge chunk of push back against JIRA.
Re:Why Jira Sucks by ori_b on Thursday December 31, 2020 @02:38PM (#25596255)
Yes, I'd also enjoy jira if the company would pay someone else to use it for me.
Re:Why Jira Sucks by my_usernam3 on Thursday December 31, 2020 @03:17PM (#25596675)
Oh man I think I need a new pair of underpants just thinking about that!

That being said, my current manager is super awesome about minimizing our JIRA involvement so I really shouldn't be complaining atm.

Re:Why Jira Sucks by wpietri on Thursday December 31, 2020 @03:34PM (#25596815)
> I feel that Jira's configurability makes it like desktop Linux 20 years ago.

Totally. A tool that's optimized for everybody is optimized for nobody. Jira for me is in the class of "false consensus" products. Since everybody has to manage work and get things done, there's an illusion that people mean the same thing by that. But the way people and teams work and the kind of work they do varies so greatly that there will never be one perfect work management tool.

Re:Why Jira Sucks by donio on Thursday December 31, 2020 @04:36PM (#25597439)
Hey now! I have fond memories of my Linux desktop from 20 years ago, I believe I was using GWM around that time. Please don't compare the abomination that is Jira to that.
Re:Why Jira Sucks by tootie on Thursday December 31, 2020 @11:24PM (#25600832)
I find it kinda odd that people's complaints about JIRA seem to all center on meetings and people. JIRA is absolutely not easy to configure. It's a pro suite of tools that requires investment in setup. What it allows is total flexibility within a set of paradigms to meet any orgs preferred workflow. Other tools that are simpler are all too simplistic.