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Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by userbinator on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:23PM (#25586920)
Regardless of whether you like Flash, this should be yet another ominous warning that you do not really own your computer anymore.

It's one thing to shut down servers used by an online service (and there's already plenty of disgust about that), it's something else entirely to essentially reach into everyone's machines and delete what they don't want! Imagine if Microsoft decided to attempt to wipe all traces of MS-DOS from existence --- this is similar, in that people have spent countless hours of effort and built lots of "applications" upon the platform, and while they would not expect the original company will "support" that eternally, they expect it to still be usable.

No doubt there will be something in the EULA that lets them do this, but I still think it's crossing a line.

The frog continues to boil slowly...

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by studius on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:15PM (#25588838)
> Regardless of whether you like Flash, this should be yet another ominous warning that you do not really own your computer anymore.

This is definitely true with regard to applications and services.

People give rms a hard time for going on about free software, but he saw this coming.

"One assumption is that software companies have an unquestionable natural right to own software and thus have power over all its users. (If this were a natural right, then no matter how much harm it does to the public, we could not object.) Interestingly, the U.S. Constitution and legal tradition reject this view; copyright is not a natural right, but an artificial government-imposed monopoly that limits the users’ natural right to copy." -rms[1]

I don't suggest jumping into the deep-end with free software mentality without full consideration.

However, Google Play Music went under recently[2] with all of the content that people bought becoming potentially unavailable, so it's worth thinking about how much we don't own.

[1]- https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/fsfs/rms-essays.pdf

[2]- https://9to5google.com/2020/12/03/google-play-music-dead/

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by matheusmoreira on Thursday December 31, 2020 @03:14AM (#25590676)
Corporations in general just like to own and control everything. Just look at the mess that is intellectual property rights. There's essentially no limits to what they will delude themselves into believing they can own.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by 1vuio0pswjnm7 on Thursday December 31, 2020 @04:31AM (#25591102)
Who starts corporations? Who hires lawyers to try to protect intellectual proprty rights? It all starts with one or a few people exercising free will. To take a more common example than Bill Gates and friends, something as seemingly "non-corporate" as Pi-Hole has become a private corporation and "owns" a trademark. Regardless of reasons, it is what it is -- individuals poised to enforce "rights" against, to block, others. The "delusion" is quite contagious. Not disagreeing with the comment, just pointing out that these problems emanate from wilful participation in the delusion by individual persons.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by bitexploder on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:55PM (#25587261)
I have increasingly felt alienated in my relationship with my computing devices. I started in the mid 90s with Linux and Win95 and you owned and could understand the whole computer. iOS and the trend of walled computing gardens were ostensibly done for security and user experience, but users have lost control of their devices. Not everyone needs that of course, but I t is a big reason I migrated to Linux this year after having an off again on again relationship with Linux on my primary computing device. macOS is good, but it used to be great. Way too many technologists are eating up things like M1 / Apple silicon without asking if it’s a good thing. It performs great, but does it really matter? I’m pretty sure it doesn’t help me code or do things in emacs any more efficiently. After Apple hardware quality dropping a lot I just don’t feel the experience is good enough to justify it anymore. Maybe M1 will be a big evolutionary step that we simply can’t ignore, but I know I can do everything I need to for the next few years on my Linux laptop. I will evaluate again when it’s EOL. Mid-2015 Mac was the last great MacBook IMO. It’s been downhill from there. It’s been a slow incremental decline in quality of both the hardware and the OS. And I really loves my Mac and Apple ecosystem a lot, but the writing is on the wall for these walled gardens. iOS is still solid and my iPhone 12 is great... but it may be my last iPhone as well. Same with Windows, honestly. Win 7 was probably the last great windows operating system. Win10 has been very okay for me. All the forced reboots and telemetry in macOS and Windows... yuck.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:08PM (#25587400)
I feel like I'm going to end up being a veritable "hermit in a shack" because I won't tolerate the expectation of serfdom to our feudal hardware manufacturer and software developer overlords.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by bitexploder on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:56PM (#25587829)
Ultimately we need a world where more than just technologists can run on commodity hardware and free operating systems. Hardware reached a point where most people can do all their computing in cheap hardware and Linux is really quite sufficient for most people, but many small and some medium size issues combine to make it too hard for most folks to embrace.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by matheusmoreira on Thursday December 31, 2020 @03:24AM (#25590713)
Sadly there is currently no hardware equivalent to free software. While anyone with a computer can learn programming and enrich the world by contributing, manufacturing modern hardware takes billions of dollars worth of equipment.

We'll always be at the mercy of hardware manufacturers until we can make our own chips at home.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by moring on Thursday December 31, 2020 @05:59AM (#25591587)
I would argue that this is only half true. In the strictest sense, yes, we are at the mercy of hardware manufacturers.

In practice, however, we can make chips at home, using FPGAs. For example, Lattice ECP5 offers capabilities beyond what can be reasonably expected from true DIY chips, can be programmed using a completely free toolchain, and let you design your hardware as RTL, which gives you all the freedom to build a free hardware layer for your free software stack.

RTL designs in particular have a much reduced chance for FPGA-specific "closedness" to leak into the software stack, like it is the case with BLOB-based device drivers. While the designs will be FPGA-specific for performance reasons, they are not forced to be closed-source, nor will the specifics be visible outside the HDL.

Again, in the strictest sense, Lattice chips are non-free too and you are at their mercy not to withdraw their support and tell their lawyers to go full nuclear on anyone working on the free toolchain, or free designs for their FPGAs. But then, with true DIY chips, the same could happen to your suppliers for wafers or chemicals. Or just other chipmakers threatening you with a lawsuit.

I would definitely prefer "more open", but having to use an FPGA is not something I would consider a show stopper. Whatever holds back free hardware, I don't think this is it.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by jrumbut on Thursday December 31, 2020 @06:13AM (#25591643)
Given the complexity and specialization and massive physical plant required for modern hardware manufacturing I just can't get as worked up over their antics like I can with software.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by ineedasername on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:42PM (#25589010)
Windows95 and 98 were the last versions I really felt I could hold pretty much all of it in my head. I didn't let WindowsME anywhere near my brain's abstraction layer of OS functionality.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by userbinator on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:55PM (#25589089)
ME is pretty much 98SE with an attempt at hiding DOS from the user. Internally it identifies itself as "MS-DOS 8.0". They are all based on a hypervisor (VMM) and were actually quite ahead of the time. The NT line, on the other hand, is considerably different and much more similar to "traditional" OSs.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by girvo on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:53PM (#25589072)
Windows 2000 was that for me
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by kbenson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:59PM (#25589113)
While I generally agree with this sentiment in a lot of cases, I don't think it really applies here.

Microsoft ships Flash with Edge and Internet Explorer, or allows it to be installed, but they have decided they no longer want to support this integration given that the software in question is no longer being supported and has a long history of security problems. They are no longer shipping it with Edge and IE and are preventing it from running there. You can choose to run it in other ways, but Microsoft does not want their browser used as an vehicle for exploits that come through Adobe. Chrome and Firefox are planning to do the same, for similar reasons, and you can also get Flash working on those manually if needed in similar ways.

The title here is pure clickbait. It's not Windows 10, it's a change in the default behavior of Edge and IE, and eventually Firefox and Chrome. A change that's as easy to work around as it was to get flash originally before browser vendors started including it by default.

If you want to talk about signed bootloaders and completely locked down systems and app stores and how those devices aren't really owned by you anymore, I'm totally on board. But to say that a change in the default behavior of a few applications on just some of the operating systems you can install on your PC is evidence of you not owning your computer, I think that's a lot harder of a case to make.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by foxhill on Thursday December 31, 2020 @07:19AM (#25591989)
> given that the software in question is no longer being supported and has a long history of security problems.

look, similarly, whilst i think the world would be better off if vaccines were legally mandatory, i would never support someone who tried to make that so. it's not (and never is) about the specifics of this _one_ thing - the world will be a better place without flash - but the general principle of who owns what & freedom. if i _truly_ own my computer, then this could never happen.

> They are no longer shipping it with Edge and IE and are preventing it from running there.

i don't think that's the case. the article mentions removal of the abode flash player component. a user must have already installed this application manually. browsers are to remain unaffected (for now at least). here's a quote from the article:

> It is worth noting that this change won’t affect your browsers where Flash will still remain a built-in component until the next big browser update.

this is more akin to microsoft shipping an update that removes VLC, and hence from the 1st of january, all your mkv videos stop playing.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by kbenson on Thursday December 31, 2020 @01:35PM (#25595548)
> if i _truly_ own my computer, then this could never happen.

Sure it could. You can own your house but choose to rent your furniture or borrow a couch from a friend. You then no longer have total control over those pieces of furniture, even if you do own your house.

Similarly, you can control your computer but choose to run specific software on it that automatically updates and changes itself. You can also choose not to do so. You are fully capably of not running Edge or IE, and choosing an old static version of Firefox with automatic updates disabled or some other browser that doesn't automatically update.

By choosing to install and/or use those applications that update automatically, you are opting in to their behavior. It was not forced on you. That goes for browsers, but it also goes for Windows. I don't think it makes sense to say you don't control your computer because of choices you made about what you run on it, especially when you still have the ability to change those choices.

> a user must have already installed this application manually.

All the major browsers switched to shipping Flash with their runtimes years ago so they could control the update process and make sure it was patched. Flash is shipped with Firefox, Chrome, Edge and IE (the latter two with OS updates most likely).

> this is more akin to microsoft shipping an update that removes VLC, and hence from the 1st of january, all your mkv videos stop playing.

No, I think you misunderstand what's going on. From the article itself: "It is worth noting that this change won’t affect your browsers where Flash will still remain a built-in component until the next big browser update." That next major browser update is when those browsers, Chrome and Firefox, are also removing flash. Everyone is doing it now because a year or so ago Adobe announced all support for Flash was ending at the end of 2020, and none of them want to ship an unsupported component with a bad security history.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by ogre_codes on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:31PM (#25587613)
> you do not really own your computer anymore.

Wish people would stop using this phrase with regards to PCs. If you buy a laptop, it's yours. Load linux on it and you will never have to deal with this. Even the new M1 Macs will offer this option (though there are some hoops to jump through).

What you don't own is the commercial software which runs atop it. In some cases the hardware makes it difficult to change what software you run (most smartphones), but we're talking about Windows PCs here. You can install what you want on them.

If you don't like what Microsoft and Adobe are doing, don't use their software.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by spijdar on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:39PM (#25587674)
You don't even need to bring Linux into the picture, necessarily.

But whatever piece of proprietary software you run with DRM and obfuscation and licensing, you don't control. It's up to you to do a cost analysis and decide if it's "worth it" -- I use lots of proprietary software, I'll admit. Office365 and Steam are two big examples that I either can't or won't give up because of the professional or personal consequences.

However, in both cases, I'm not in control of either piece of software. That's what I get for using proprietary software. It sounds like crazy Stallman ranting, but maybe he was right on this one -- the real solution is to not let proprietary plugins like Flash become "required" to use the net. As long as your computing platform is free, you have the choice not to.

The number of people agreeing with this sentiment that this is about controlling our computers is kind of disheartening. This isn't OS or firmware level lockdowns, just a piece of software.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by ogre_codes on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @07:12PM (#25587957)
> You don't even need to bring Linux into the picture, necessarily.

I only bring in Linux when I need it to get a job done!

I use MacOS and have an iPhone. I don't worry about the philosophy since they have for years done (mostly) what I need. If it look like MacOS will stop being useful to me, good resale values on Macs means I can move on.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by SteveGerencser on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:48PM (#25588659)
And I wish that Linux fans would stop saying use Linux as if that is an answer for the vast majority of PC users in the world. It stinks of elitism on so many levels. And yes, I use Linux, but I would never consider putting it on a machine for my mom, or my sister, and nearly anyone else. Linux simply is not a viable solution for so many people.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by scbrg on Thursday December 31, 2020 @07:16AM (#25591965)
Nothing is perfect. Everything is a tradeoff. If you want to avoid corporations controlling your computing environment, Linux is perhaps the easiest way to do that. The alternative is to continue letting corporations control your computing environment and... whine about it, I suppose.

Do you think it's better to offer no suggestion at all? To not even tell people about their options?

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Thursday December 31, 2020 @12:23PM (#25594690)
We could also have an option for consumer protections to prevent corporations from exercising some types of control.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by tluyben2 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:05PM (#25589468)
> for my mom, or my sister, and nearly anyone else.

Especially my mom, dad, sister and almost everyone else I know use one application on their computer and that is Chrome. My father still works and so does my sister and yet they do not work with or need anything else. Linux works fine for that. Almost everyone I know would not know the difference between an Ubuntu laptop or a windows one as long as the Chrome button ('the internet') is there.

Ofcourse this differs if people need native applications (maybe) but I would say that most people would not notice Linux at all. Not because Linux is great (I use it exclusively but I do not care about ux/ui), but because most people do not do so much 'natively' with a computer anymore and hence can switch fluently from Mac to win to lin to ios to Android (and frequently do during the day between some combinations of these) as long as they can find 'the internet' button.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by Osiris on Thursday December 31, 2020 @12:00AM (#25589745)
Sounds like a Chromebook.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday December 31, 2020 @12:42AM (#25589942)
Indeed. Arguing that Linux makes a good web appliance does not endear it to anyone who needs more than a web appliance.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by ogre_codes on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:05PM (#25588765)
> as if that is an answer for the vast majority of PC users in the world.

The vast majority of PC users don't give a fuck if they "Own Their Hardware" or any other philosophical questions about their computer. They buy a tool and use it. Generally speaking, those tools work just fine for them until ultimately the drive fails or they drop it into a creek while hiking.

It's the nerds on HN who bitch about "Owning their computer". Literally the people who should have the skills and knowledge to fix the very problem they are complaining about. If you tried to talk to your mom or your sister about how they don't own their computers they would likely look at you as if you were insane.

FWIW, I'm only intermittently a Linux user, mostly I use MacOS.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by im3w1l on Thursday December 31, 2020 @04:05AM (#25590951)
They don't complain about "not owning their computer" but they complain about downstream problems.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by mixmastamyk on Thursday December 31, 2020 @04:31AM (#25591096)
1999 wants their argument back. My daughter uses Ubuntu Mate and is quite happy with it. None of the bullshit of Windows ten.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by AnIdiotOnTheNet on Thursday December 31, 2020 @12:42AM (#25589940)
I work in IT, write software, and have a significant number of hobbies centered around computing and I don't even think Linux is a viable choice for me [0]. But there's a lot of Linux evangelists out there who simply refuse to believe there is anything wrong with it for anybody.

[0] and belive me, I've tried [1][2].

[1] Some evangelist is typing a response right now about how I haven't really tried. They are part of the problem.

[2] I've put together my own distro, written and contributed to open source projects, until sometime earlier this year ran Linux on 4/5 computers I used regularly at home (now down to 1/5), and was even president of a LUG for a while. So shut up about how your grandma uses it as a web kiosk so it must be fine for everyone.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by ogre_codes on Thursday December 31, 2020 @01:54AM (#25590265)
Except I'm not remotely a Linux evangelist. I use a Mac. I didn't suggest Linux desktop is for the masses.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by chmod775 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:42PM (#25587714)
>What you don't own is the commercial software which runs atop it.

I do! I bought it after all.

If the software does something I did not agree to at time of purchase, I'm going to hold the seller accountable.

If the gardener you're paying suddenly went and threw a painting in the trash because he considered it ugly you'd have a problem with them too.

Whether or not people 'agreed' to this being done is another question though.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by ogre_codes on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:54PM (#25587818)
> I do! I bought it after all.

Did you? Maybe you should re-read that 400 page EULA you browsed past.

When you buy software you are agreeing that you don't own that software. You are instead buying a license to use that software.

> If the software does something I did not agree to at time of purchase, I'm going to hold the seller accountable.

When you buy software, you fundamentally agree that it is suitable for no particular purpose. Since much of the software you "buy" isn't even something you've paid for, the vendor can shut off that hose whenever they want.

> If the gardener you're paying suddenly went and threw a painting in the trash because he considered it ugly you'd have a problem with them too.

I'm sure your agreement with your gardener looks quite different from the EULA you agree to when you use software.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by chmod775 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @10:57PM (#25589430)
Your comment is summarized by the last sentence of my comment.

Except for:

> When you buy software you are agreeing that you don't own that software. You are instead buying a license to use that software.

This is incorrect in many jurisdictions, including the EU, regardless of what the EULA or whatever would make you believe, for software distributed in the way Microsoft Windows is [1]

[1]: http://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&doc...

Instead ownership works similar to as it would for, for example, a book. You don't own the IP, but you do own the book.

Also I don't own the gardener either, the distinction doesn't even matter.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by paulryanrogers on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:46PM (#25587751)
Legally you usually just buy a license. Often with automatic updates and an EULA subject to change at any time.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by paulryanrogers on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:44PM (#25587728)
Good point in general, though on specific cases UEFI and similar may complicate things so much it's out of reach of the masses
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by hackmiester on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:03PM (#25588748)
Can you elaborate about UEFI?
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by paulryanrogers on Thursday December 31, 2020 @12:07AM (#25589791)
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by TameAntelope on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:10PM (#25587421)
Not for nothing, but the "slowly boiled frog" idea is a myth. When the water gets too hot, the frog will jump out.

In other words, when the problem becomes bad enough, we as metaphorical frogs, will react normally.

This is a Good Thing, and you should be wishing Microsoft, Apple, Google did this more often, because if they did, we'd all be meaningfully safer, having lost zero liberty along the way.

Nobody's freedom is threatened because Microsoft removed software that was notoriously unsafe and was also set to stop working at the same time. Maybe a more apt analogy would be "boy who cried wolf"...

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:18PM (#25587493)
How is taking away an ability my computer had, without my consent, not threatening my freedom? (I'd like to see the EULAs for the affected Windows and Flash versions, too. I don't recall reading licenses for on-prem installed software that talk about the licensor being free to arbitrarily disable or remove features.)
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by quesera on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:11PM (#25588393)
> How is taking away an ability my computer had, without my consent, not threatening my freedom?

Because "threatening my freedom" is either a) an incredible overreaction, or b) meaningless.

You are not going to have your freedoms curtailed. You will not go to prison. You will be able to share your opinion on the matter without restriction. You may continue to practice your chosen religion. You will not be taxed. You will not have additional restrictions placed upon your travel. You will not be required to house troops in your residence.

You can even choose to not install the OS update, and your old software will continue to work. You can choose to reinstall an old version of the OS, and your old software will continue to work.

Perhaps you desire an ongoing and perpetual right to download new versions of a commercial software product, which will never include changes that you do not personally desire. That right does not exist and it never has. This is not a threat to your freedom.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by VRay on Thursday December 31, 2020 @01:40AM (#25590183)
> You can even choose to not install the OS update, and your old software will continue to work. You can choose to reinstall an old version of the OS, and your old software will continue to work.

?? It's possible to hack around the update, but it's a forcibly-pushed update that breaks something on your machine, and the only easy way to stop it is to go offline permanently

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by derefr on Thursday December 31, 2020 @02:07AM (#25590333)
Why would you expect that doing something that goes against what everyone else wants, would have been made easy for you? You're basically becoming your own "distro" of Windows. Of course that's hard.

But the point the GP is making is that it's also not totally implausible to do, if there were any real motivation for people to pursue it.

There was a real reason for people to want to "take control" of Android, and so we got LineageOS.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by kevin_thibedeau on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:27PM (#25587579)
You don't own the software. You didn't even purchase the Flash player. Adobe has zero obligations to you. You could turn around and claim their behavior is a CFAA violation but good luck winning.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by dietr1ch on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:32PM (#25587618)
ok, but if the machine was working offline you'd still be able to play one of those flash games right?

I really couldn't care less about the agreements, they are something nobody can afford to read and many times something that can be changed without notice anyways.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:30PM (#25587604)
I get that. I understand that software is licensed.

I agreed to a license. If that license doesn't say that the "manufacturer" can arbitrarily remove features at a later date then I'm not sure how they get a pass for that.

Edit (to your edit): Yeah. It sounds criminal to me. They'd be exceeding their access granted to my system. Definitely sounds like CFAA territory in the US. Fat chance that anything would be done about it, but it can still piss me off (and make me try to gin-up pissed-off feelings in other people).

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by thombat on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:14PM (#25588422)
From the EULA:

7.2 Updating. If your Computer is connected to the Internet, the Software may, without additional notice, check for Updates that are available for automatic download and installation to your Computer and let Adobe know the Software is successfully installed.

10. Limitation of Liability. IN NO EVENT WILL ADOBE, ITS SUPPLIERS, OR CERTIFICATION AUTHORITIES BE LIABLE TO YOU FOR ANY DAMAGES, CLAIMS OR COSTS WHATSOEVER INCLUDING ANY CONSEQUENTIAL, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL DAMAGES, OR ANY LOST PROFITS OR LOST SAVINGS, EVEN IF AN ADOBE REPRESENTATIVE HAS BEEN ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH LOSS, DAMAGES, OR CLAIMS. THE FOREGOING LIMITATIONS AND EXCLUSIONS APPLY TO THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW IN YOUR JURISDICTION. ADOBE’S AGGREGATE LIABILITY AND THAT OF ITS SUPPLIERS AND CERTIFICATION AUTHORITIES UNDER OR IN CONNECTION WITH THIS AGREEMENT SHALL BE LIMITED TO THE AMOUNT PAID FOR THE SOFTWARE, IF ANY.

So their argument would be that you accepted that the software would update automatically and that in any event you'd have no claim for loss. Does CFAA apply once you've already bent over?

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by TameAntelope on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:41PM (#25587703)
A) You did consent, as you indicated here. B) Your computer still has the ability to run Flash programs, this is removing the Adobe Flash Player, not disabling Flash programs entirely, which leads to C) The Flash Player is disabling itself on January 13th, so Microsoft is not removing any capability for you at all, Adobe is, and D) since it’s free software they licensed to you, the have every right in the world to make it do whatever they want (including making it not work any longer), and you have every right in the world to remove the app early if you don’t like what it provides.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @07:02PM (#25587880)
The Flash EULA[1] contains language about updates re:

If your Computer is connected to the Internet, the Software may, without additional notice, check for Updates that are available for automatic download and installation to your Computer and let Adobe know the Software is successfully installed. The Software may automatically download and install updates from time to time from Adobe. These updates may take the form of bug fixes, new features, or new versions. You agree to receive such updates from Adobe as part of your use of the Software.

I could see an argument that a self-destruct mechanism is a "bug fix" or a "new version". I could also see an argument that it's not.

I'm coming around to the line of thinking that another poster mentioned-- that this could be considered Adobe criminally exceeding the access to my system that I've granted them. I agreed to updates. Not to removal of functionality.

I can't do a damned thing about it, but it pisses me off, and I want other people to be pissed off about it to. Taking away functionality in somebody else's computer is unethical in my moral framework. Normalizing that idea is dangerous and wrong to me, too.

[1] https://www.adobe.com/content/dam/cc/en/legal/licenses-terms...

Edit: Would it be your contention that all software developers have the right to remove functionality in their software at any time? Does consideration paid factor into that? What if it's expeditious for my business model to disable my older software to get you to move to my new software? Does such disabling constitute an "update"?

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by TameAntelope on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @07:59PM (#25588324)
At this point my primary concern is that the language and severity you’re claiming here diminishes the impact of future discussions, when something vastly more serious may actually be an overreach.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:59PM (#25588730)
It's that important to me. Maybe it isn't to you. So be it.

Computing has been a major part of my life for 35 years. I wish that I didn't have dependence in proprietary software but I do. Within that context this matters a lot to me.

Normalizing the idea that the developers of proprietary software are acting ethically (if within their legal rights, which I would dispute) when they remove functionality is very troubling to me.

I would rather that this kind of behavior, on the part of developers, be both socially taboo and illegal. Failing illegal I'll settle for socially taboo.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by TameAntelope on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:52PM (#25589070)
What would it look like, if you were over-reacting? What facts would come to light that'd make you say, "Oops, my bad!"?

Alternatively, if this is allowed to pass, what material differences will come into existence as a result? What predictions will you make about the lasting consequences of this specific action?

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @10:47PM (#25589380)
What would it look like, if you were over-reacting? What facts would come to light that'd make you say, "Oops, my bad!"?

It's difficult for me to conceive of my reaction as an overreaction. I would like to explore that dialogue, but I can't get myself into a place to work from. I just can't do it.

Alternatively, if this is allowed to pass, what material differences will come into existence as a result? What predictions will you make about the lasting consequences of this specific action?

People won't know what general purpose computers are. They'll accept silly ideas like "Well, my computer just can't do that thing anymore." The full value that computers can bring to individuals and to society won't be realized.

General purpose computers are a unique invention in human history. I hold the value they bring to humanity in high esteem. I think their ability to affect positive change on the human condition is difficult to understate.

I perceive a systematic effort, and a manifest effect brought on by the marketplace, to eliminate access to general purpose computing for individuals and to replace computers with vaguely computer-shaped appliances.

We're racing headlong into a "The Right to Read" scenario. Feeling that it's normal to accept somebody altering your computer because you agreed to a vaguely-worded license agreement stilted heavily in the favor of the software developer isn't alright. The more people think that's alright the worse things are for everybody.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by TameAntelope on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:08PM (#25589484)
> It's difficult for me to conceive of my reaction as an overreaction

Sorry, but if you can't even conceive that you're wrong, you're not equipped to argue about it.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:23PM (#25589569)
You're not "Sorry", though. You're just dismissing me.

Not being able to conceive that I'm not overreacting doesn't mean that I can't conceive that I'm wrong. It means that I can't conceive that I'm overreacting.

I had a hard time responding to your first inquiry. I responded to your "Alternatively..." inquiry as an alternative. Instead of addressing what I could respond to you just dismiss me. That disappoints me.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by TameAntelope on Thursday December 31, 2020 @12:33AM (#25589903)
I'm sorry I have to dismiss you, as you're not willing to entertain the possibility I'm right.

You might have been right and I'm missing something, but now we won't know.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Thursday December 31, 2020 @11:42AM (#25594229)
I need to stop replying, but you've gotten under my skin. I'm not good at walking away from things (particularly Internet bickering).

I'm sorry I have to dismiss you, as you're not willing to entertain the possibility I'm right.

Which is not what I said.

I suppose I should have just dismissed you when I asked questions that you didn't "satisfactorily" respond to.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by TameAntelope on Sunday January 03, 2021 @07:20AM (#25621364)
The discomfort you're experiencing is not caused by me, it's caused by the fact that you're aware of your own unreasonableness here. What you do with that discomfort is up to you.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by userbinator on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:42PM (#25587713)
This is a Good Thing, and you should be wishing Microsoft, Apple, Google did this more often, because if they did, we'd all be meaningfully safer, having lost zero liberty along the way.

Hell no. This is essentially the rise of authoritarianism...

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by Spivak on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @07:42PM (#25588191)
I mean it very literally took Apple refusing to support Flash to start its rapid decline.

Voting with your wallets has never really worked. Consumer preferences do change overtime but getting millions of people to act in unison is an exercise in futility. Until someone with actual market-swaying power brakes the wheel it will keep on spinning.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by anfilt on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @10:04PM (#25589139)
Like boycotts have and do work. I think the problem is average/majority user does not quite understand the minutia.

Successful boycotts seems to deal with worker mistreatment, racial discrimination and other unethical behavior that a business may be doing. Even then they are not always successful but it certainly is easier to explain the situation to people in those cases. However, still run into issues like it is too essential like food or just too much apathy for the entire market of that product.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by TameAntelope on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @10:44PM (#25589364)
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by derefr on Thursday December 31, 2020 @02:03AM (#25590307)
The frog thing is about the spinal/muscular reflexes of recently-deceased frogs, or about separated frog legs.

A dead frog will "jump out" if placed in boiling water, but not if brought up to temperature gradually.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by ocdtrekkie on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:45PM (#25587156)
This has been the case since Google Chrome. If you tolerated Chrome and it's "evergreen browser" behavior, you supported the process that eventually became software developers' assumption that they should update themselves without permission on their schedules, and retire and remove features with regularity.

In 2020, we no longer have a right to act surprised about this, because we should've done something to fight it a long time ago.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:49PM (#25587188)
I broke that functionality in Chrome so I could control when it updated. I didn't accept it. I won't accept it. I would encourage others not to accept it.

I will abandon platforms that take away my control. That's not tenable for a lot of people. There's just a lot of "cool stuff" that I don't get to use if there isn't a Free solution. I deal with it. I hate it, but I deal with it.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by JadeNB on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @07:50PM (#25588246)
> I broke that functionality in Chrome so I could control when it updated. I didn't accept it. I won't accept it. I would encourage others not to accept it.

> I will abandon platforms that take away my control.

If you are still using Google Chrome, then it sounds like you will work to avoid the limitations of platforms that take away your control, which is very different from avoiding them.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:27PM (#25589603)
I did not accept Chrome's "evergreen" functionality-- I didn't say that I don't use Chrome.

I continue to use various hobbled Chrome versions when circumstances dictate. I use Firefox when I can.

I wish I didn't need Chrome from time to time. If my underlying OS prevents me from hobbling Chrome I'll ultimately have to abandon Chrome (and probably the OS).

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by tpxl on Thursday December 31, 2020 @04:37AM (#25591135)
> If you tolerated Chrome and it's "evergreen browser" behavior, you supported the process

This meme needs to die. If all the choices are bad and you choose the least bad, you don't support it.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by userbinator on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:38PM (#25587663)
That's why I don't use Chrome, nor do I endorse others doing so (look at some of my other comments, if you want to know what I think of Google and its effective monopoly...)
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by RandallBrown on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:56PM (#25587270)
This is also how websites work.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:09PM (#25587405)
Which is a good reason to eschew software that's delivered via third-party servers versus running on your hardware.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by josefx on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:32PM (#25587623)
Weird, I have some saved copies of sites that ceased to exist years ago. The backups are still where I left them and I can open without issues. Apparently Microsoft failed to wipe my backups.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by throwaway201103 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:09PM (#25587408)
Yes but I don't "own" a website. It's not reasonable for me to expect websites to keep working the way they always have.

For SaaS of course, that's something to be aware of. Since I don't have the hardware and software under my control, I have no say in when the supplier stops providing it. Many people have learned this the hard way with Google services, just as an example (there are many others, not picking on Goggle in particular here).

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by euske on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @08:57PM (#25588713)
Not just computers but an increasing number of devices in general: some cameras, thermometers, and vacuum cleaners require immediate online activation (w/ software update) or they don't function properly; this is a borderline fraud in my opinion. We should mandate that companies must give a clear warning for things like this.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by Santosh83 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @10:50PM (#25589396)
Thermometers? Seriously!? Unbelievable!

I'm waiting for 2025 when a piece of cutlery or your garden hose will need internet activation.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:28PM (#25586963)
There are still ways of playing flash for those who truly need to.

https://lightspark.github.io/

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:32PM (#25587011)
I should be the one to decide when my computer stops being able to do something it could already do. The default should be that I do nothing and my computer continues to be able to do what it already did.

It's wrong every time I have to do something to allow my computer to continue doing something it already did. This is why I have to be exceedingly careful not to install updates on those dwindling platforms where I still have that control. I have no idea what features are going to be removed, and usually have no way to get them back. (Hello e-fuses in the Nintendo Switch, or Apple no longer signing old iOS releases to prevent downgrading.)

We should not normalize the idea that third-parties can take away the capabilities of devices we own.

Edit: I would go so far as to say that it should be illegal for a device manufacturer to prevent you from reinstalling any old firmware onto a device you own. (Yes, yes-- I know that we're getting into the whole "But that old device firmware has security bugs! Think of the Internet!" discussion. Liability, both for device manufacturers and for device owners, is a conversation we need to have too.)

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by mlacks on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:51PM (#25587226)
I think the problem is when someone isn't able to decide what's best for their computer - and then decides to blame the vendor.

The vendor has already distributed the software with the QA done as thoroughly as possible/ practical, issued a TOS denying a warranty or any sort of protection from failure - that we all agreed to - and yet the litigation is inevitable if something happens to the end-user on account of a vulnerability in the software.

Its not their computer, but in our litigation-happy cultural climate, its their responsibility. No one is preventing us from doing what we want with our computers with this flash issue - just reducing liability.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by Grimm1 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:07PM (#25587389)
This exactly and having a discussion as a society and the legal changes necessary will be a much harder solution that literally nobody except relatively diehard techies care about.

I care about true device ownership but there are like literally only probably what? 1000's 10's of thousands globally even a million or two globally of us isn't much compared to billions using the devices.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:22PM (#25587526)
That's what gives me the crushing sadness. It's never going to rise to the level that individual consumers will care.

Only the "diehard techies" will care. Based on how many of my technical friends have knuckled-under and normalized these kinds of affronts to freedom apparently there are fewer "diehard techies" than I thought, too.

I wish that I could just "turn off" my love for computing and computers. Instead, I get to see my hobby and vocation die a long, painful death.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Thursday December 31, 2020 @10:14AM (#25593361)
>It's never going to rise to the level that individual consumers will care.

Could it be possible that it's actually less of an issue than it seems to you?

>Only the "diehard techies" will care.

I'm a diehard techie and I do not care.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:03PM (#25587349)
Let's have a conversation about "cyber" product liability as society, then, instead of leaving it up to the hardware manufacturers and software companies to decide.

Individuals should bear some of the liability for how their devices are used. If my device that I've opted to take off the vendor-prescribed updated train causes a public menace that should be my liability.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by throwaway201103 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:17PM (#25587483)
Automobiles are the model here. As an owner I am liable for any damage I cause by my operation of the automobile. However if there is a design defect (e.g. Toyota sticking accelerator, etc.) that I reasonably was unaware of, then the manufacturer has liability. But if I continue to drive my Toyota, knowing of the problem and ignoring the manufacturers recalls, then liability comes back to me.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by 2OEH8eoCRo0 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:47PM (#25587171)
Devil's advocate- as long as that feature is there Microsoft has an obligation to support it. The feature has fallen out of use. Why should Microsoft be forced to support this forever?

You're free to stop updating Windows right?

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:59PM (#25587310)
What does "support" mean? Let the feature continue working has it has. Sure. Yeah.

You shipped the code. It exists forever. You don't get to take it away later because it's not in your business interests.

Fix bugs? I'll pay for that if I want that. Software is a service. They shouldn't be obligated to fix bugs for free (unless they agreed to that in a contract).

With Windows 10 I'm not free to stop updating Windows if I want a computer connected to the Internet. Microsoft does dirty tricks to make if very difficult for me from completely stopping the update treadmill. They've shown that it's an arms race, too. I can't possibly keep up with that opponent.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by criddell on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @07:21PM (#25588024)
Maye there's a fitness for service argument that could be made and that the software is dangerous in its current state. Disabling it is one way to make it safe and the license spells out what their obligation is to you when they do so.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:44PM (#25589674)
Most EULAs disclaim all fitness for purpose, though. They restrict the rights of the end user (no reverse engineering, no benchmarking, etc) and disclaim away any and all liability from the developer (no warranty, not fit for any purpose, etc).
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by voldacar on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:29PM (#25586984)
Yeah but thats not the parent's point. The problem isn't a lack of ability to play .swf files, it's about the user's control over his machine
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by protoman3000 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:50PM (#25587198)
Can you on your own machine run your own bootloader and execute whatever instruction you would like to execute?

If yes, what’s your point?

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:26PM (#25587564)
For an increasing number of devices the answer to your first question is no.

We've already normalized the idea that a significant market percentage of small-form-factor battery-operated general purpose computers don't actually belong to the people who bought them.

We're a hair's breadth away from normalizing that idea with personal computers.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by merb on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:30PM (#25587607)
there is also ruffle, but it does not have as3 support :-(
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by type0 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:32PM (#25587017)
It is yet another ominous warning about the dangers of proprietary software
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by protoman3000 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:46PM (#25587162)
Imagine if OS vendors and Intel decided to attempt to install microcode updates that fix severe vulnerabilities on your machine and essentially reach into everyone’s machines and delete what they don’t want!

The frog continues to boil slowly...

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by Roritharr on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:58PM (#25587289)
Imagine if the President told the NSA to remove every copy of a file. the pathway you've described would be potentially viable to reach a large majority of files in storage someplace.

Terrifying thought.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by protoman3000 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:04PM (#25587363)
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by cesarb on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:54PM (#25587814)
> remove every copy of a file

I vaguely recall that this (or something similar) was one of the worries about Palladium/NGSCB back in the day.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by rightbyte on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:00PM (#25587318)
Child's play compared to add data to a specific file ...
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by kungito on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:38PM (#25587083)
Can't you install an older version of Windows (like 7 or XP) to use older deprecated software? At some point we need to let the old stuff dissappear from main branch
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by throwaway201103 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:42PM (#25587121)
Doesn't that rapidly become impossible if you don't already have the installation media? Where would I get a (legitimate/safe) copy of Windows XP at this point?
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by userbinator on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:41PM (#25587696)
archive.org can help.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by Simulacra on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:45PM (#25587746)
From a philosophical perspective... Except for your thoughts and perhaps your life, which is another discussion entirely, it is arguable that you don't own ANYTHING. Not your home, your car, software, or the phone in your hand. You only have it because a corporation or government allows you to have it.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by kevingadd on Thursday December 31, 2020 @04:17AM (#25591015)
"Flash content will automatically stop working in January even if you don’t remove the player manually."

My opinion only here, but the only company to blame for this is Adobe and this isn't corporations slowly taking over your computer (aside from the fact that yes, it is happening) - this is just another example of how Adobe hates their customers, sort of like how you can't buy Photoshop anymore and you have to put up with their cloud updater that will delete your mac's backblaze folder. Software with an expiration date is an old poison that Adobe has repurposed to EOL their own product because they're tired of maintaining it.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by matsemann on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:50PM (#25587212)
If they didn't, people would instead lament them how their OS is unsafe. Removing or disabling unsafe programs is a security feature, almost as if detecting malware.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:15PM (#25587458)
Then let's talk liability. Nobody comes and takes away your car if you fail to have safety-related recalls performed. You might face significant liability if you cause injury as a result of ignoring a recall.

I am perfectly fine with a world in which end user companies or individuals assume liability when they fail to adhere to a manufacturer's prescribed update regime.

In the business world, I expect insurers to drive this. As "cyber attacks" get more and more costly the insurance industry is going to put the hammer down.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by hombre_fatal on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @09:19PM (#25588868)
I'm not sure what you're suggesting (often the case with analogies). I'm not going to even guess where you think liability in that analogy interfaces with someone, who doesn't even know what Flash is, using Windows on their home computer that gets pwned by a Flash exploit.

But you need to temper your argument across your posts here with the various benefits of the appliancification of computing for most people.

Since you don't, it becomes impossible to parcel whatever argument you're making from the arguments of "people should care more about <arbitrary thing that I happen to care about>" and "anything that addresses the needs of others over me is bad" and "there is literally nothing good about an automatic Windows update removing Flash."

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by WorldMaker on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:49PM (#25587771)
The car analogy isn't a great one here either because there are seatbelt laws, light/lamp laws, etc that do carry serious penalties (such as fines and even jail time). Nobody will necessarily repossess your car, sure, if you fail to fix a broken headlight or seat-belt, but you can still be fined or jailed for it. (Though even repossession can happen as those fines/jail time can in turn cause repossession of your car as a secondary effect, depending on your loans/liens/bonds and the state in which you live.)
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by EvanAnderson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @07:03PM (#25587898)
There is the potential for personal liability as a result of ignoring recalls. I'm not talking about failure to maintain a vehicle. I'm analogizing willfully ignoring safety-related recalls.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by WorldMaker on Thursday January 07, 2021 @06:55PM (#25679407)
I'm not talking about "failure to maintain a vehicle" in a general sense, either; I'm talking safety-related recalls as well, because there have been serious repercussions in willfully ignoring safety-related recalls in the automotive world.

IIRC, under the aegis of seatbelt laws some states impounded cars that didn't get a critical safety-related recall due an issue with the Toyota automated seatbelts of the late 80s/early 90s.

Issues like that often end up with class action suits to deal with corporate liability issues, it's not all personal liability either.

Maybe that's still too "one time for one particular issue" to easily dismiss the flaws in your analogy. What about emissions-related recalls?

Some states still have ongoing vigorous emissions testing requirements and some of those requirements include checking for emissions-related recalls. Failures are sometimes impounded, almost always disallowed permits/registrations to use of the roads.

One of the largest scandals of which should still be in recent memory, "Dieselgate", where VW was forced at great expense to recall entire models of cars that would not be allowed on the roads of all states that followed US EPA laws. Which the US federal government led a lawsuit (which included several states as additional complaintants) against VW for the problem, and leveraged a massive corporate liability fine. VW had to work to buy back all the recalled vehicle models, and had to do massive corporate restructuring in response to the US provided mandates that they accepted in lieu of fine payment.

Your car analogy is over-simplified, even if it is not entirely wrong.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by filmgirlcw on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @07:19PM (#25588009)
Counterpoint - in nearly all cases (and I would say essentially all cases since Windows 8 was released), this was software that the user didn’t decide to install at all. Instead, it was installed for them by either their OEM or was included in Windows or by a browser maker or was part of some other software package (that almost certainly didn’t require it). So removing something that is a proven security risk, that the manufacturer actively deprecated years ago, and that it is shutting down server side in two weeks, seems to be far different than removing something that was a core part of the operating system. And even then, as others have pointed out, software updates remove features from software all the time.

I totally agree that it feels weird and is bad if an update actively uninstalls something for legal reasons, like Amazon taking stuff off of Kindles remotely, but we're talking about software the user didn’t ask to install and that the maker is shutting off anyway.

The vast majority of Flash usage was web-based and the web version will cease to be supported at the server level and at the browser level in a matter of weeks. Users that deliberately want to run insecure software or outdated web browsers have that option, and there are plenty of alternatives to display archival content.

Any non web-based Flash applications have been written using Adobe Air for over 12 years (and desktop Flash apps have always been a rarity anyway), and Adobe Air isn’t going away. If there really is a self-contained app (probably a game) that wasn’t packaged using Adobe Air that absolutely relies on an ActiveX plugin, there are alternatives the user can find and use. Technology becomes obsolete. And software stops running. At least there are preservation efforts out there.

There are infinitesimal edge cases where a user knowingly and specifically installed Flash Player for non web-based purposes. Those users are going to be given a warning before the application is removed, allowing them time to find an alternative way to access those files.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by willtim on Thursday December 31, 2020 @04:35AM (#25591129)
This highlights the risk of building upon and investing in a closed-source and proprietary platform (Flash). Once Adobe discontinued it, it was inevitable that browsers would eventually stop supporting it.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by musicale on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @11:40PM (#25589655)
> Regardless of whether you like Flash, this should be yet another ominous warning that you do not really own your computer anymore.

I'm pretty sure you can choose to not run Windows 10.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by unixhero on Thursday December 31, 2020 @05:09AM (#25591320)
>Regardless of whether you like Flash, this should be yet another ominous warning that you do not really own your computer anymore.

If you run Windows or OSX that is.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by stretchcat on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:39PM (#25587088)
An ominous warning that you no longer own your computer, or the inevitable consequence of you never owning this proprietary software in the first place?
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by SimeVidas on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:40PM (#25587689)
You’d have a point if Flash Player was paid software.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by Grimm1 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:03PM (#25587346)
Okay but you can't have that way and then have the liability rest on the company for recompense in the case of a vulnerability. That's why this has gone this way because of the threat of being sued.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by rcoveson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:45PM (#25587155)
My bias is definitely to agree with this sentiment, but I'm going to play devil's advocate:

Windows 10 automatically updates itself, which is a reasonable thing for a consumer operating system to do. It happens to be a very "wide and deep" OS which includes a lot of userland stuff as part of the same release bundle, like OS X/macOS. There are FOSS projects that also operate this way. The GNOME environment comes to mind as a similarly "wide and deep" example. I myself have had the experience of having a GNOME feature I was using removed after an update. The recourse in that case isn't much different from the recourse in the Windows 10 Flash case. You can either live without the removed thing or find a third party solution. What you can't do is just stop updating the thing; you'd lose (community) support and important bug fixes.

Of course, as long as it's FOSS you can just fork it, right? But really that's not the appropriate solution for cases like this. We're talking about the removal of a basically stand-alone feature. If the official bundle stops supporting that thing, forking the bundle is not the way forward. Bringing in a third party is.

So the way I see it, both the problem and the solution here are the same for both Windows and large FOSS software bundles like GNOME. They're the opposite of narrow projects, so stuff is bound to get removed eventually. You can't stay on an old version, you shouldn't fork, and in some cases you probably shouldn't even protest, as the reasoning for removal may be sound.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by throwaway201103 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @05:55PM (#25587259)
> What you can't do is just stop updating the thing

That's the choice being argued. You should have that option. It's unreasonable to expect that old software will always be supported. There is a real cost to it. But as long as I still have the machine it should be my choice as to when it no longer does the things I need it to do (at least until the point of physical failure).

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by rcoveson on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:03PM (#25587351)
I didn't mean it that way. I meant to point out that you're stuck between a rock and a hard place whether you're a GNOME user or Windows 10 user. It's possible to stop updating, but you probably can't, because you probably need something in some Windows or GNOME release down the road.
Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by Spivak on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:08PM (#25587403)
The nice thing about OSS software is that you actually can selectively pull patches from upstream to build your own stable version.

It’s way too much effort to do to for all software you use but not too unreasonable for your most used tools. At work we maintain lots of forks of libs we use. I maintain a fork of Ansible that has niceties like blocks you can loop over. It’s somewhat controversial to patch in features but we ended up deciding that it’s more important for software to do what we want.

Re:Flash Player is about to stop working on Windows 10 by throwaway201103 on Wednesday December 30, 2020 @06:05PM (#25587365)
Ah yes that is true. It's a tradeoff between how much you need the old software to keep working and how much you need the other updates to the platform.