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Re:Working at Apple (2011) by fenomas on Friday December 25, 2020 @07:13AM (#25536025)
A good friend of mine worked at Apple in a mid-to-senior role for about two years; when he joined he told me not to ask him anything so I didn't.

Shortly after he left we were having a drink, and I say: "Just tell me this, did you like it there?" He thought for a fair bit and eventually said "no comment".

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by thrwn_frthr_awy on Friday December 25, 2020 @03:10PM (#25538677)
I worked at Apple for 5 years in two different groups and this really isn’t that normal. The person in the article worked on experimental hardware which is not most people’s experience. Most people have no problem talking about what they work on, the technology they use, and what they like about Apple. Unfortunately rarely people find those blog posts interesting enough to share leaving a disproportionate number of posts like in the article.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by ttul on Friday December 25, 2020 @01:53PM (#25538247)
Sounds like NSA. A friend worked there and couldn’t even tell her husband what she did. Like not even a general idea.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by chris11 on Friday December 25, 2020 @02:16PM (#25538372)
One benefit of that is that you can't take work home, although I think Covid is forcing them to make some changes.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by sneak on Friday December 25, 2020 @05:54PM (#25539729)
If you leak from NSA they either attempt to assassinate you, or you get put in prison. Due to the massive illegal spying programs run by the NSA, they have lots of avenues for finding out who leaked the data.

If you leak from Apple (and they find out) then Apple can sue you and maybe get a civil judgement against you take your assets and possessions, but you remain a free person.

Huge difference.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by academi on Friday December 25, 2020 @09:20AM (#25536615)
Mastery of something to serve or help and seeing good things happen from that is one of the things that bring happiness to me.

Often, I’ve blamed my employers for being miserable, but I realize now that they can contribute to happiness or unhappiness but they aren’t the primary reason for frustration or unhappiness.

My health, primarily my mental health, affects how I act and how I interpret things.

Even the best people that aren’t mentally unwell can be unhappy.

However, being unhappy most of the time is mental illness, whether it’s because of what seems like an unreasonably difficult environment or one that’s seemingly reasonable.

Some may bounce out of it and others can’t seem to, but being stuck in a mode of “I had promise and they killed it” doesn’t help anyone.

In this case maybe the “no comment” was a joke, maybe it was a bad fit, but those that aren’t unhappy most of the time should get help.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by the_arun on Friday December 25, 2020 @04:52PM (#25539317)
Last line

> but those that aren’t unhappy most of the time should get help.

I think you meant

"but those that aren’t happy most of the time should get help".

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by dman on Friday December 25, 2020 @10:44AM (#25537060)
Lot of insight in this comment. Thanks for writing it!
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by aplummer on Friday December 25, 2020 @01:15PM (#25538024)
You’re allowed to talk about what it’s like to work at Apple (good or bad), just not the work at Apple.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by jldugger on Friday December 25, 2020 @01:32PM (#25538112)
Yea, but if you did, nobody would accept the offer.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by aplummer on Friday December 25, 2020 @01:44PM (#25538197)
Its a big company and I’m sure the experience on different teams is varied - but I really like working at Apple.

It’s hard work but much more interesting than my previous jobs, and people _really_ believe in the values like privacy which I like.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by xvector on Friday December 25, 2020 @04:17PM (#25539099)
Apple has a no-bullshit work culture (you aren't infantilized like at many other Silicon Valley companies) and the employees really do value and care about their work and its impact in the grand scheme of things.

Unfortunately, this doesn't extend to upper-management, which is why we see things like Apple 'forgetting' to implement cloud-wide E2EE at the behest of the FBI, or turning over iCloud servers to the Chinese government, creating a massive corporate-sponsored state-surveillance network.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by baby on Friday December 25, 2020 @02:50PM (#25538573)
That’s the reason why I think I couldn’t work for Apple.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by mayankkaizen on Friday December 25, 2020 @10:21AM (#25536928)
I'm baffled. Why couldn't he say he was happy at Apple if he was happy? The "no comment" answer kinda implies he wasn't really happy.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by fenomas on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:00AM (#25537155)
I can't speak for him, but I understood him to be sardonically answering my question. If he was genuinely afraid to say anything bad about the place I imagine he'd have said "it was okay" or the like.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by username90 on Friday December 25, 2020 @10:58AM (#25537141)
> The "no comment" answer kinda implies he wasn't really happy.

You don't think that was the point? "No comment" is a very common way to express that you weren't happy.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by bedhead on Friday December 25, 2020 @10:41AM (#25537044)
Because you sign various employment contracts that contain all sorts of landmines even after you’re gone, and out of self-preservation it’s a helluva lot easier to just not comment.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by throwaway45349 on Friday December 25, 2020 @10:43AM (#25537057)
They can't be that all-encompassing as to not be able to say if you were happy...?
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by webmobdev on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:01AM (#25537164)
In today's social media world where people are willing to post any gossip on the internet for some meaningless likes / points, I think its actually prudent to measure your words carefully before you voice them. Especially if the law is involved.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by jeromegv on Friday December 25, 2020 @12:25PM (#25537703)
If you’re afraid that your friend will share on social media your name and your state of happiness about your previous job, May be they aren’t great friends.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by xwdv on Friday December 25, 2020 @01:10PM (#25538000)
A person could be a great friend until they’re not.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by spacedcowboy on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:31AM (#25537344)
They’re not. It was either a joke or he was trying to be edgy.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by bedhead on Friday December 25, 2020 @01:43PM (#25538186)
There are disparagement clauses often.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by mwfunk on Friday December 25, 2020 @07:13PM (#25540228)
No, there are not disparagement clauses in the US tech industry, and if any company has them then they deserve to be utterly roasted from now until the end of time. Please make HN posts about each company with a disparagement clause so everyone here knows which companies to avoid. It'll be the easiest Internet points you'll ever make, and you'll be doing a public service.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by eplanit on Friday December 25, 2020 @09:40AM (#25536714)
To be honest, that doesn't sound like a "good" friend to me. Doesn't trust you enough to share not only any work details, but not even an opinion either? Maybe too much self-importance?
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by ChrisMarshallNY on Friday December 25, 2020 @09:56AM (#25536799)
You've never worked in a high-security environment, have you?

My father was in the CIA, in the late '40s thru '60s.

We didn't find out until the late '90s.

One of his brothers was almost certainly a Company Man, too, but that has never been confirmed; even though he’s been dead for decades.

Apple's OPSEC is probably tighter than the CIA's.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by eplanit on Friday December 25, 2020 @10:01AM (#25536828)
Yes I have. Guarding national security is one thing. Keeping a new consumer gadget secret is another. Apple isn't so important.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by bitexploder on Friday December 25, 2020 @10:17AM (#25536901)
To society as a whole, yes. To the company itself, there is definitely competitive advantage to protect trade secrets so harshly. It’s hard to argue it doesn’t have some value for Apple. I think it’s a little extreme and disagree with the degree to which they enforce it on all of their teams, even knew where it clearly has minimal competitive advantage.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by webmobdev on Friday December 25, 2020 @10:58AM (#25537145)
I agree. Apple doesn't (nor do many other corporates). And so they make you sign lot of contracts and non-disclosure agreements to shut you up. So you shut up to put food on your table.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by foobarian on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:56AM (#25537522)
I don't have many friends, but of the ones I do there are still two whole people I would be comfortable sharing privileged info with peace of mind that they will keep it to themselves. The same goes the other way, I have no problem keeping confidential things confidential.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by xvector on Friday December 25, 2020 @04:20PM (#25539118)
Agreed, that's just called having a good friend. I've had friends at Apple that have no trouble telling me what they're working on.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by AsyncAwait on Friday December 25, 2020 @10:27AM (#25536968)
CIA does very little guarding national security as far as I can tell.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by WJW on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:01AM (#25537165)
For a spy agency that is exactly how it should be. If any rando on the internet could detect what they were doing then it wouldn't be very secret.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by AsyncAwait on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:06AM (#25537200)
The CIA is very quick to 'leak' of its successes to the national press via 'anonymous government officials'. It's just I don't consider staging coups and arming extremist 'rebels' to be part of protecting national security[1].

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timber_Sycamore

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by WJW on Friday December 25, 2020 @01:20PM (#25538050)
How can you tell that all successes are leaked and that all the things leaked are actually true? If they prevent 100 terrorist plots but 95 of those were through various means that they wish to keep secret, they would simply only leak the ones for which they don't care that their sources are exposed. In fact, it would be extremely difficult to verify if the stories about arming rebels are even true, or maybe a side plot to play down their competence and lull the actual adversaries into a false sense of security.

It is in the very nature of a spy agency that the general public does not know what they are up to.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by sneak on Friday December 25, 2020 @05:58PM (#25539760)
If they intentionally leaked nothing, this would be perhaps a reasonable approach.

The fact that they leak positive stuff sometimes, and coupled along with the fact that they run a global network of torture sites (and hacked the computers of their own congresspeople who are their oversight, then lied about doing so) means that they probably aren't as do-good and trustworthy as you seem to think they should be assumed to be.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by WJW on Saturday December 26, 2020 @09:09AM (#25543542)
Of course they're not do-gooders. It's a spy agency, shady stuff is their very raison d'etre.

I was questioning the original point made by AsyncAwait, which was that "CIA does very little guarding national security as far as I can tell." The "as far as I can tell" part of that comment makes the rest just silly, since making sure you can't tell is 90% of spy work.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by AsyncAwait on Saturday December 26, 2020 @10:54AM (#25544137)
You've missed the point of my comment entirely.

I've put the "as far as I can tell" part in there precisely BECAUSE from what we CAN tell i.e. has been declassified or leaked, it pretty much all terrible shit that has nothing to do with protecting national security.

Of course there's a lot we can't tell, but given the stories we can tell the ratio of good/bad is way out of whack in favor of the bad, especially given CIA's tendency to selectively leak good stories about itself and its extensive declassified historical record, the amount of 'good' should be a lot higher than it is.

Destroying torture records for example shows that it is way more concerned with illegally concealing bad behavior than avoiding it in the first place.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by stefan_ on Friday December 25, 2020 @12:01PM (#25537549)
All the secrecy at spy agencies has been shown time and time again to be primarily to coverup their ineffectiveness and incompetence, not to mention the crimes against humanity.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by hef19898 on Friday December 25, 2020 @02:17PM (#25538379)
I had both, Amazon and as a defense contractor. Nothing ever would have prohibited me from talking about how work was, what I worked on was for obvious reasons easier at Amazon. But even in the contractor job it was no problem saying I worked on Integrated Logistics Support on aircraft. This was a far cry from being CIA, so.

That being said, I told people the comment thing more than once. Always to people I know and people that know me well enough to get the meaning. In other cases I just said I won't answer certain questions. Much different than the bo comment trope.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by Rebelgecko on Friday December 25, 2020 @03:02PM (#25538630)
It's sometimes funny how those things worth with the government. I was talking to an acquaintance who worked at a company that built satellites for NRO/NSA & Friends. He could tell me things like "we had a great test of the cryocoolers last week and some of our design tweaks really improved the performance. On the other hand he wouldn't tell me what the satellite was for or even its name.

A coworker of mine went to a foreign country once on a business trip. When he asked what he could tell his wife about his trip, the guidance he got was "You can tell her either where you're traveling or why you're traveling. Not both."

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by m463 on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:57AM (#25537526)
A friend of mine had an aunt who worked for a government agency.

She got an award. She did something that was a big deal. They had a ceremony and her close family was allowed to attend.

However, my friend said the ceremony was congratulations and handshakes, but zero details about what it was for.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by goldenchrome on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:30AM (#25537332)
Loyalty to institutions that don't care about you is the most foolish idea. I would never worry about keeping state or company secrets because they would never keep mine. It's a one-sided exercise in self-flagellation. The more we learn about our government the more we learn about it's inhumanity. Giving your life to it is akin to throwing it away. Perhaps worse than that because of the damage one can cause.
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by jariel on Friday December 25, 2020 @02:23PM (#25538417)
? Apple is not 'the CIA' for gosh sakes.

There's no reason for all of this.

It's perfectly reasonable for people to say 'I work on iOS' or I work on 'new hardware but I can't say much more than that', or 'I work in production for Apple TV'.

Most people at most companies are not allowed to talk about the details of what they do.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by hef19898 on Friday December 25, 2020 @02:38PM (#25538502)
That. I was contractor once, we obviously were allowed to say what we did to various degrees. Like working on picture analysis or analyzing operational data and so on. But not about the actual details. Even the projects and so on were usually only refered to indirectly. After that, it usually just took 5 minutes on Google to find out what it was. Say supporting a new military aircraft program for the German armed forces, that left you with two options. Again, we never talked about the details, say prices, data and so on. And I won't. Nor will I talk about concrete data from my days at Amazon.

But, yeah, I very much talk about what I did. Would be quite difficult to pass interviews and get projects, wouldn't it?

Same goes for the real secret stuff. Saying you worked abroad for the CIA is much different from saying you served as a CIA operative in Afghanistan between 2001 and 2004. Unless, of course, you get an official legend fot your life after.

Re:Working at Apple (2011) by spicyramen on Friday December 25, 2020 @11:30AM (#25537330)
Good thing that under Jim Cook, there's nothing they can hide as no new products exists :)
Re:Working at Apple (2011) by fenomas on Friday December 25, 2020 @10:34AM (#25537010)
That's certainly one possible way to interpret what he said. Here's another: he wasn't refusing to answer my question, he was sardonically answering it.