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Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by TedShiller on Friday December 18, 2020 @04:50AM (#25465510)
I don't understand Facebook's concern. Apple is merely allowing users to OPT IN to tracking. It doesn't matter if tracking is good for small business, because it's the users that are being tracked. And if Facebook tracking is so great for the users, then clearly every user will opt in. So why is Facebook worried? The only reason Facebook could be worried is if they know tracking is bad for users.
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by spinningslate on Friday December 18, 2020 @05:30AM (#25465768)
> I don't understand Facebook's concern.

That's OP's point. Facebook's concern is nothing to do with "protecting the poor little businesses". It's everything to do with protecting their own business. Because they know that opt-in will drastically reduce their ability to track.

But they can't say that. They can't put out an ad that says: "hey. We've been sucking up your data for years, without your informed consent. And we've made a ton of money from it. Now Apple wants to stop us doing that unless you're OK with it".

So instead they're pulling every lever they can to make Apple look like the bad guy while avoiding the truth. Hypocracy, exactly as OP says.

That they're stooping to these levels just emphasises how much they think the change is going to hurt them.

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by fingerlocks on Friday December 18, 2020 @05:19AM (#25465694)
Imagine for a moment that you want to advertise your new iPhone app on Facebook. It’s important to know if someone clicks an ad and downloads your app. That’s called a Conversion. It’s used to measure the effectiveness of the ad campaign and the value you gain from spending money on an ad.

The flow of information from Facebook to iPhone app install needs some kind of per-user unique identifier. That’s unique ID is what Apple wants to remove, which breaks the advertising model in entirety. It also hurts small businesses that want to advertise on Facebook.

Does that help understand the situation?

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by ThePhysicist on Friday December 18, 2020 @06:40AM (#25466126)
You can measure conversions without relying on personally identifiable information. Adding e.g. a non-personal tag to your URL will enable you to track the source of a conversion. If this happens in a browser you can even store that (non-personal) information in the localStorage or a cookie, so even if the user doesn't convert immediately and only comes back after e.g. a week you will be able to tie the conversion to the specific ad. Where in that process do you need personally identifiable information?

Also, Facebook doesn't only use these identifiers for conversion tracking, it uses them to create a persistent profile of a person that often ends up containing a ton of sensitive information. Believe it or not, a lot can be inferred about you from your app downloads and website visits. As of now FB was mostly able to perform this kind of tracking without the user really knowing, the only thing Apple does here is drag this practice into the open and give users a real choice.

In my opinion a privacy-first OS should inhibit any kind of cross-app / cross-device personal tracking, I predict this will happen in the next 5-10 years, for now it seems to be too extreme still.

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by fingerlocks on Friday December 18, 2020 @10:20AM (#25467897)
I never said personally identify, just uniquely. The IDFA, the thing surrounding all of this drama, does exactly what you describe.
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by ThePhysicist on Friday December 18, 2020 @10:45AM (#25468140)
Well, a unique identifier that is tied to a specific device is considered personal information.
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by fingerlocks on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:13AM (#25468457)
Even if you can change it at will?
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by ThePhysicist on Friday December 18, 2020 @12:38PM (#25469640)
Yes, even then. If that wasn't the case it would be trivial to circumvent the GDPR, as then basically any pseudonymous data would be considered non-personal. A Google Analytics user ID is also random and can be changed at any time, still the data that Google collects is considered personal.
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by fingerlocks on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:11PM (#25471328)
We aren’t discussing the collection of user data here. The IDFA ad system does not require anything more to function as described.

While in practice some user data is used to make a hash to increase the conversion accuracy, it’s by no means necessary.

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by vvG94KbDUtRa on Friday December 18, 2020 @02:59PM (#25471208)
> You can measure conversions without relying on personally identifiable information. Adding e.g. a non-personal tag to your URL will enable you to track the source of a conversion

That literally is what we're talking about

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by foxhill on Friday December 18, 2020 @05:50AM (#25465870)
> Imagine for a moment that you want to advertise your new iPhone app on Facebook.

i don't think that's what you're describing here.

> It’s important to know if someone clicks an ad and downloads your app. That’s called a Conversion. It’s used to measure the effectiveness of the ad campaign and the value you gain from spending money on an ad.

i think you've conflated A/B testing with user-profiling. you will obviously know if a campaign has been "effective", if sales increase. you absolutely do not need to uniquely identify a user to do this (which is what happens today).

> That’s unique ID is what Apple wants to remove,

as stated, apple don't want to remove it, merely make it opt-in. and if the end user isn't opting in, they probably don't want it.

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by realityking on Friday December 18, 2020 @07:36AM (#25466464)
> you will obviously know if a campaign has been "effective", if sales increase.

This is simplifying marketing too much. You’re likely to run concurrent campaigns on different platform, Facebook, Instagram, Google Search, Twitter, etc.

Marketers would like to understand what campaigns and what medium helps drive sales/installs. No need to waste money on Twitter ads if it turns out no one actually ends up buying.

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by dhosek on Friday December 18, 2020 @09:55AM (#25467648)
This is easily managed by changing the url based on the source of traffic (e.g., the omnipresent ?camId=foo on so many links). Heck, back when I published a magazine, I did this in analog form by using slightly different addresses for mailed in subscriptions (adding a Dept S to the address for the ad in Step by Step, Dept H for How Magazine). It doesn't take intrusive user tracking to be able to measure this sort of thing.
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by mingfli on Friday December 18, 2020 @01:53PM (#25470497)
There are no URLs in app installs. The ad links to the iOS app store, and Apple does not give you any information post install on where the source came from.
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by dhosek on Sunday December 20, 2020 @11:24PM (#25492112)
Most ads don't link directly to the app store, but instead send you through a tracker site which logs the click before forwarding you to the app store.
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by engineeringwoke on Friday December 18, 2020 @08:58AM (#25467090)
As I understand it there would still be a unique identifier related to the specific campaign.
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by Aaargh20318 on Friday December 18, 2020 @05:43AM (#25465835)
If I put an ad in a newspaper, or a commercial on TV, and this ad results in a customer purchasing my product, they don't give me a 'unique ID' for the ad that triggered their purchase. Hell, the ads aren't even targeted to a specific user, only to the audience of a paper or TV network.

Yet, when I open a paper or turn on the TV, there are plenty of paid advertisements. Why would the web need to be any different ?

Don't charge for clicks, just charge for showing the ad. Don't target ads based on personal data collected from users, target them based on the content of the page they're shown on. You know, just like TV and print ads have always done.

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by avree on Friday December 18, 2020 @05:50AM (#25465873)
...because paper and TV advertising is dying, largely because it is horribly ineffective for the reasons you described.
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by AlexandrB on Friday December 18, 2020 @08:54AM (#25467063)
And yet we're all buying diamonds and slathering on deodorant...

[1] https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/how-advertisers-convi...

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by alibarber on Friday December 18, 2020 @08:18AM (#25466743)
Looks like Facebook agrees with you:

"The social media giant rolled out full-page ads across popular publishing houses such as the New York Times, Wall Street Journal, Washington Post, and more..."

There seems to be a certain irony in this.

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by rush340 on Friday December 18, 2020 @11:58AM (#25469054)
The cable company and newspaper would absolutely love to do that if it were possible on their technology.

If you put an ad on TV, the cable company is wasting valuable time showing your ad to a ton of people who will never purchase your product (I wonder how many hours of my childhood was spent in front of things like diabetes ads, funeral home ads, depression medication ads). Same goes for newspapers.

If they could somehow target ads based on who's watching, the ads would be massively more effective and they could charge a lot more for showing ads.

By targeting ads and charging so much more for ad time, some companies can even afford to offer their services for free, which massively increases the audience, which brings in more money, which gives them the budget to build a bigger, better service, which increases their audience, which brings them more money, etc etc

And that's how you end up with Facebook and Google.

Obviously the problem is that this isn't transparent. Many people don't know why they get all of this complex technology for free. It's not explained when you sign up for a new account.

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by Aaargh20318 on Saturday December 19, 2020 @06:10AM (#25476677)
> If they could somehow target ads based on who's watching, the ads would be massively more effective

They already can, and do. They know what the audience of their shows is and schedule the ads accordingly. Don’t show ads for funeral homes during Saturday morning cartoons. Hell, this is how we got the whole concept of a soap opera: soap ads during shows targeted specifically at housewives.

You advertise cars during car shows, tools during DIY shows, toys during cartoons, etc.

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by dhosek on Friday December 18, 2020 @09:59AM (#25467691)
There are simple low-tech ways to do this. Differing phone numbers for call-in orders, adding a meaningless suite or department to the address for mail-in orders. Even a slight variation on the URL for web contacts. None of this requires Facebook-style tracking.
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by Spivak on Friday December 18, 2020 @09:31AM (#25467411)
Ads that don't give the advertiser direct tracking usually give users a code or url specific to a campaign to track their effectiveness. This is an "if they could do more they would" situation.
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by nojito on Friday December 18, 2020 @05:28AM (#25465750)
Where’s your proof that advertising or tracking conversions even works in the first place?

https://freakonomics.com/podcast/advertising-part-2/

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by nobody9999 on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:37PM (#25471620)
>That’s unique ID is what Apple wants to remove, which breaks the advertising model in entirety.

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by m463 on Friday December 18, 2020 @05:27AM (#25465744)
users don't opt-in to ads/tracking. Facebook is worried because they want it to be complicated and confusing to opt-out.
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by SamuelAdams on Friday December 18, 2020 @08:24AM (#25466789)
It's really a lot simpler than that: users don't change default settings. Some studies say only 5% of users change any settings at all [1][2]. So Facebook is concerned that their ability to track about 95% of their people will simply disappear.

[1]: https://archive.uie.com/brainsparks/2011/09/14/do-users-chan...

[2]: https://service-design.co/95-of-the-people-stick-to-the-defa...

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by m463 on Friday December 18, 2020 @09:47PM (#25474518)
But in this case, isnt' there a dialog? (and THEN they don't change settings)
Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by danieldk on Friday December 18, 2020 @06:30AM (#25466076)
Apple is merely allowing users to OPT IN to tracking.

I think opt-out tracking (if opt-out is even offered) with personally identifiable information is probably not even permitted under the GDPR, especially the broad, unnecessary cross-app tracking.

Apple is actually doing app developers a favor by improving compliance with the GDPR.

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by ksk on Friday December 18, 2020 @03:32PM (#25471566)
>And if Facebook tracking is so great for the users, then clearly every user will opt in.

IME for most users the default action for any popup falls into two categories - (a) Quickly close it without reading, (b) Accept it blindly without reading. The ratio changes, but I think its about even.

Re:Facebook's Hypocrisy on Apple's New iOS 14 Privacy Feature by silveroriole on Friday December 18, 2020 @05:43AM (#25465838)
I’m hoping we get some kind of hilariously obvious astroturfed Twitter campaign telling people that opting in to ads is woke left-wing praxis to help content creators. At least I can get some entertainment value out of that.