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Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by war1025 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:37PM (#25446437)
We ended up buying Diono Radian carseats [1], which are marketed as "the 3-across car seat"

We can fit our three kids in the back of our Honda Civic perfectly well.

But we've had exactly the same conversation. In order to have a fourth kid, we'd need to swap out our vehicles. House is fine, insurance is fine, income is fine, but we'd need to upgrade vehicles, and that seems to be just enough friction to make the idea unappealing.

[1] https://www.diono.com/us/product/radian-3r-2020/

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by Someone1234 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:44PM (#25446572)
The Radian is definitely king of three across. But they're premium priced ($200 each, or $600 for three), and sacrifice comfort particularly for longer trips.

In general people who have never had kids don't seem to grasp that the average (non-Radian) car-seat is BIGGER than an adult side-to-side. The Radian series has a niche because they produced a car-seat the same size as an adult (with no loss of safety), but had to sacrifice comfort to do so.

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by war1025 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @03:06PM (#25447815)
> sacrifice comfort particularly for longer trips.

I guess maybe they are less comfortable than traditional car seats, but since car seats are basically build like lazy-boy recliners, that seems unsurprising.

Our kids have never complained about the comfort or lack-thereof. They seem to have pretty equivalent comfort when compared to the back seat itself as far as I can tell.

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by cbhl on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @06:53PM (#25450408)
That definitely seems like an improvement over car seats from the 90s. As an adult I still remember hating full-day road trips in the hard-plastic-with-a-fabric-liner car seat my parents owned; my butt was always sore after sitting in it for too long.
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by nostrademons on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @09:58PM (#25451875)
Car seats are way better than they were when I was a kid in the 80s. I recall that my car seat as a kid was a hard vinyl upright contraption that made me carsick whenever I rode in it for a long time. My mom actually sewed fabric covers for it so it wouldn't burn me on hot summer days.

My kid's infant car seat was a click 'n go bassinet with a soft fabric liner. His convertible car seat stays in the car, but it still reclines better than any adult seat, with more plush padding than the car itself. He actually prefers the car over the bed for naps. Only problem is that he's still rear-facing and his legs are getting a bit too long for the seat, but he solves that by putting his feet up.

Kid stuff is one area where I've been pleasantly surprised by how technology advanced when I wasn't looking. Car seats, strollers, baby gates, and toys are all way more advanced (and cheaper, inflation-adjusted) than they were in the 80s.

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by FullyFunctional on Thursday December 17, 2020 @12:59AM (#25453021)
You kids are funny - I remember sleeping in the back of our station wagon with my sister while we were flying down the autobahn. (Yes, it seems crazy today).

My main gripe about the car seat is all the damn waste. We have four of them and you can't sell them or even give them away. I'm not sure about the recycling situation yet, but even in the best case not much can be recycled.

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by schwartzworld on Friday December 18, 2020 @07:15AM (#25466343)
There's no reason you can't gift a non-expired car seat, or even sell it. It's probably not a good idea to buy one on Craigslist, but we had no qualms about taking a secondhand car seat from a trusted source who assured us it hasn't been in any accidents.
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by zo1 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @05:04AM (#25454187)
Keep them and give them to family, otherwise donate to charity? Heck, check your local community chats/groups/forums, you can probably sell it for a small amount. Someone will find a way to resell it and make a profit.
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by VBprogrammer on Thursday December 17, 2020 @06:09AM (#25454496)
There is a fear that car seats can be weakened by being involved in a crash.

My opinion is that it's way overblown, how many people have a serious crash with kids in the car? How many of them would then go on to resell the car seat? How many of those people would go on to have another serious crash to test the theory?

That said, when it comes to protecting our children, it's hard to justify saving a few bucks.

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by tomcam on Thursday December 17, 2020 @05:11AM (#25454216)
I remember sleeping on the windowsill behind the back seat of our car. Good times.
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by LeifCarrotson on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @05:52PM (#25449880)
What makes you say they're less comfortable? Compared to my kid's carseat, it looks like they removed the side bolsters (which are like 6" tall in mine) but kept everything else basically the same - a few mm of foam and some neoprene over plastic.
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by fiddlerwoaroof on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @07:33PM (#25450785)
Yeah, the Diono is also just the most well-designed car seat, in all sorts of ways: e.g. they have the best-designed latch clips I’ve seen.
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by geoduck14 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @11:34PM (#25452498)
As a new parent, I was surprised how much space a kid took up. I didn't know about Radian car seats - we did Graco. We also upgraded to an SUV (Honda Pilot), and then a minivan (Pacifica) to hold all of our kids. The cars were expensive. As young adults, with small incomes, having to buy large vehicles was a punch to the gut.
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by dmurray on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @09:03PM (#25451484)
Let's say it costs you $200k to raise a kid to adulthood [0]. A Honda Civic costs $25k new [1], an 8-seater Honda Odyssey costs $31k new [2]. A car lasts 10+ years so conservatively that's $12k extra in transportation costs for your fourth child. Maybe you can argue it's $20k with fuel.

That...doesn't seem unreasonable? As a society, we like people to start families and continue the human race, but we know overpopulation is a thing and we don't want everyone to have huge families. 10% extra marginal cost is small, and offset by other economies of scale.

[0] I don't have a better estimate for this than Bill Waterson putting it at $100k. In 1987. https://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/1987/07/24

[1] https://www.edmunds.com/honda/civic/

[2] https://www.edmunds.com/honda/odyssey/

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by war1025 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @10:26PM (#25452084)
> That...doesn't seem unreasonable?

Financially, no it isn't unreasonable. But it's an added bit of friction to a decision we are already on the fence about.

I think that's the entire point of the article. Adding friction to the decision on whether to have more kids leads to people having fewer kids.

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by watwut on Thursday December 17, 2020 @05:26AM (#25454286)
> but we know overpopulation is a thing

Overpopulation is not a thing anywhere in West.

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by SulfurHexaFluri on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @10:05PM (#25451932)
We still have a birth rate that is too high. It will be a long long time before we need to work on raising the birth rate and the problem isn't that complex.
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by memling on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @10:11PM (#25451972)
> We still have a birth rate that is too high. It will be a long long time before we need to work on raising the birth rate and the problem isn't that complex.

Do you have any citations for this? Not snarking—genuinely curious, not arguing, but I was under the impression that most population growth in developed countries like the U.S. was due to immigration rather than above-replacement fertility rates.

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by noizejoy on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @10:20PM (#25452047)
If you think globally, the population still appears to be on the rise.

https://ourworldindata.org/world-population-growth

{Edited for typo}

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by curryst on Thursday December 17, 2020 @01:44AM (#25453250)
It probably depends on the metric you're trying to optimize. I was curious about that as well, but I was thinking in terms of the maximum number of humans the earth can support. We certainly haven't hit that yet, we have large swaths of land allocated to relatively inefficient means of producing food (i.e. cattle).

Also, don't we need some level of population growth for Social Security to function correctly? We could replace Social Security, but it would be difficult and expensive.

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by amurthy1 on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @11:04PM (#25452320)
The world overall might have too high a birth rate but almost all Western countries have a birth rate below the replacement level of 2.1 (e.g. US, UK, AUS all at 1.7 [0] and falling [1]).

Unless you make up this difference with immigration, you have a declining population, which creates all sorts of short term issues.

Given that western countries have become increasingly hostile to immigration, especially from developing countries, trying to increase birth rate in western countries is a reasonable thing to explore imo.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_and_d...

[1] https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SP.DYN.TFRT.IN?location...

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by adrianN on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @11:54PM (#25452626)
Let's explore that after we figured out how to live without destroying the planet.
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by ClumsyPilot on Thursday December 17, 2020 @06:23AM (#25454565)
The economy will collapse if there are 2 pensioners per employee
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by SulfurHexaFluri on Thursday December 17, 2020 @06:12PM (#25461752)
Because its built on bullshit. With the automation we have today we could easily satisfy the needs of everyone with fewer workers. Its the obscene demand for constant growth that causes these issues.
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by adrianN on Thursday December 17, 2020 @07:02AM (#25454806)
The economy will also collapse if climate change keeps going, the oceans are empty, topsoil is gone, aquifers depleted, insect populations decimated...
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by memling on Thursday December 17, 2020 @08:08AM (#25455213)
> The economy will also collapse if climate change keeps going, the oceans are empty, topsoil is gone, aquifers depleted, insect populations decimated...

Yeah, there's a tension here it seems. But it's harder to fix a pension system with technology, and the system is much more socially fragile. There are policy approaches available in the US that might not be available elsewhere (e.g., lifting income caps on social security and medicare taxes) that will kick the can a bit further down the road, but it's challenging to make diverse societies peaceful and cohesive.

On the other hand, private enterprise and technology have a bevy of tools that aren't as readily available to policy makers. Government in principle can encourage more environmentally-friendly energy and food production, but they're not in the business of actually innovating.

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by ClumsyPilot on Thursday December 17, 2020 @06:21AM (#25454552)
Most developed countries have a declining population, most of europe has a fertility rate of 1.5. We are propping it up with immigration, and if it goes too low, the pention system would collapse - there would be not enough people in work to support the elderly.

>"problem isn't that complex."

It's a very conplex problem, people, especially women, had a tectonic shift in their priorities, culture and family size.

All developing and developed countries are on the same trajectory of declining birthrates, and I have not seen any policy that can raise it succesfully.

Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by irrational on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @11:51PM (#25452603)
The only places with high birth rates are Africa and SE Asia. These days complaining of birth rates has a tinge of racism. Wouldn’t want too many more brown and black people would we? Especially with white birth rates in a free fall that doesn’t seem to have a bottom.
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by zo1 on Thursday December 17, 2020 @05:03AM (#25454179)
A lot of the "too many people" complaints are directed at the West and 1st-World countries. So not complaints about "too many black/brown people", but rather "too many White/Western people", which is obviously not racist at all!
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by irrational on Thursday December 17, 2020 @12:01PM (#25457438)
Ironic if true since given current trends there won’t be many white/western people left within a short amount of time.
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by thatfrenchguy on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @09:57PM (#25451872)
I mean in the US you’ll also need to save 6 figures for the kid’s college as well…
Re:Child-safety laws may reduce the birth rate by imaginenore on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @06:32PM (#25450235)
Except National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) rated Dino carseats with 2 stars for ease of use. Which means you're more likely to injure a child when using the seat.