News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by 11thEarlOfMar on Monday December 14, 2020 @10:47PM (#25426743)
This general topic seems to come back into focus on a regular basis on HN (last time, 1 week ago). People have been leaving SV in numbers for the 30 years I've been here, always citing traffic & cost of housing as the primary reasons. Though this time, you could add decriminalization of petty crime. Nonetheless, the population growth remains net positive.

The fundamental design of the Internet was to be robust against various forms of damage to the network. I see Silicon Valley as a similar type of system. It is not difficult to look back 40 years and see how at each inflection point, The Valley's constituent technologies, and the companies they spawned, led the rest of the world and scaled The Valley up.

- In the 1980s, Silicon Valley's Intel lost it's dominance in DRAM production to Japan. The economic impact was dire, and yet

- In the early 1990s, networking and workstations emerged from the likes of SUN and Cisco. They carried through until global competition stole their wind, and it was on to

- The late 90s and the .COM boom. And what a boom it was, Amazon, Google, followed by another death knell for myriad .COM corpses. Promptly engendering

- The 2000s birth of social media. MySpace faltered, then LinkedIn, then Facebook, then Twitter, came up and are still going strong on the foundation of

- 2010s open source platforms. Still mind-blowing: At one point WhatsApp had 40 software engineers and 400,000,000 users. At 3 years old.

I've heard about the exodus from California, usually citing so many thousands or 10s of thousands of people leaving. But looking a the net population changes, Santa Clara County is down 5,000 from 2018-2019. Alameda, San Mateo, San Francisco are all up.

Silicon Valley is a system that regenerates from one generation to the next, and so far, always bigger and more influential than the last.

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by microtherion on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @11:35AM (#25431865)
I just came across a NYT article from 1997 talking about the emergence of Texas as a high tech haven, and migration of tech companies from California.

Prominent local superstars included Dell, Nortel and Enron (As well as numerous companies who fared better, admittedly)...

https://www.nytimes.com/1997/11/30/business/a-new-breed-of-w...

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by fairity on Monday December 14, 2020 @10:56PM (#25426810)
Since cities thrive based on network effects, my question is: did everyone in past exoduses move to the same location? If not, is that not a good reason to believe this time will be different?

Smart, ambitious people tend to congregate, and capital follows. If during past exoduses, people moved to random places, I can see why SV remained the primary magnet. But, this time everyone seems to be moving to Seattle and Austin (based on my anecdotal experience of ~20 SV startups that have moved to Austin in the past 6 months).

Other things that make this time different: remote work being generally acceptable & higher state income tax

Of course, "every time is different", but eventually SV will fall. The question is just when and what the right conditions are.

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by cameldrv on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:53AM (#25428364)
CA still has the advantage of no noncompetes. It's fairly standard for Texas companies to require an enforceable noncompete. These companies are sort of like mules -- born from perhaps many fertile companies, but produce no offspring.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by api on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @09:07AM (#25430389)
I've heard this and the general borderline unenforceability of "we own all your work, even during off hours" clauses in employment contracts as a major reason that the center of innovation shifted from Boston and the East Coast to Silicon Valley and California.

Boston should have been Silicon Valley. It had all the education and a much deeper history of innovation. It also could have been down in New Jersey where Bell Labs was.

It would be interesting to see a breakdown of where other states stand on this issue. I know Massachusetts implemented some similar reforms a decade or so ago, but that's a little late to the party.

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by nostrademons on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @12:26PM (#25432473)
Also rich people that are willing to take a risk, and old people that stay relevant and up-to-date on technology.

I grew up in Boston and spent the first 4 years of my career there. The biggest problem the Boston startup scene has is that VCs won't fund you unless you're 40+, have a proven track record at an established local company, and can demonstrate a solid business model with LOIs or customer contracts in hand. Sounds reasonable, right? Except that Microsoft, Facebook, Reddit, DropBox, and YCombinator all started in Boston and left because none of them ticked the boxes needed to attract funding. I had lunch with Drew Houston right after he closed DropBox's Series A, when he was looking for employee #2. He said that immediately after presenting to Sequoia, the whole office had checked out the product and he had a term sheet within a week; meanwhile the Boston VCs they presented to (despite knowing Drew since childhood) had hemmed and hawed and said "We need more data".

These are the kind of cultural differences that aren't easily papered over with policy. They're also why the Midwest and the South struggle to attract and keep startup ecosystems. I suspect that many of the problems in California (over-regulation, direct democracy, laissez-faire overlooking of social problems like homelessness & crime, the tendency for everyone to jump on the next bubble) are actually the flip sides of the cultural attributes that make it great, which is an extreme openness to new experiences and a willingness to take a chance on new ideas.

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by qppo on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @10:05AM (#25430919)
The first thing that any state should do to make itself a new tech hub is create strong protections for workers so they can freely move to different companies or found their own.

Pro-labor is not anti business, quite the opposite here. But it's never understood that way.

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by mamon on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @12:57PM (#25432866)
Problem is: most governments think of "pro-labor" laws as paid sick or maternity leave, labor unions privileges, or protections from being fired, e.g. mandating longer notice periods. This mostly benefit low wage workers, who lack bargaining power, but the needs of highly paid tech workers (such as no non-competes) go unnoticed.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by qppo on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:45PM (#25435019)
Comprehensive labor reform could be a solid platform for any state representative or governor that wants to make a run in 2024, and I can see several states taking it on. There are many horses to be traded.

Some things like banning non-competes, personal IP protections, corporate immunity from COVID lawsuits, police union reform, teachers union reform, pension reform, family and sick leave... there are so many things to attach one's name to its mind boggling. And there is wide support for some of these things on both sides of the aisle - and it doesn't touch guns or abortion!

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by api on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @11:00AM (#25431432)
The fundamental problem is governments making laws to serve existing companies rather than to help create new things that don't exist yet. It's "hold on to what you have" vs creating something new.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by vmchale on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @10:10AM (#25430969)
> Boston should have been Silicon Valley. It had all the education

Boston is a tech hub, just smaller.

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by api on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @12:01PM (#25432150)
I've lived there years ago. It is a tech hub, but it's considerably smaller in most areas and has a less innovative business culture. A tell for this is the pejorative use of the word "cowboy" for someone that doesn't do things by the book. It's something you never hear elsewhere, not even in the Midwest or Texas.

It's also way too classist and aristocratic in its thinking. Where you went to school basically informs a caste system.

Climate aside though, it is a nicer city. It has more usable (though quite old) transit, is very walkable, clean, low crime, and is much more affordable than the Bay Area (though still pricey).

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by 11thEarlOfMar on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @12:10PM (#25432273)
Yes. Interestingly, 80%+ of the world's Ion Implanters for semiconductor fabrication are designed in Greater Boston by Applied Materials (formerly Varian Semiconductor) and Axcelis (formerly Eaton). Implanters are serious science and engineering[0] machines with nearly $2 Billion worth sold in 2020.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_(semiconductor)

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by dannyincolor on Monday December 14, 2020 @11:01PM (#25426844)
I imagine we will just have more innovation centers. Nothing wrong with that and certainly not deserving of the “California is dying” hype
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by fossuser on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @11:44AM (#25431956)
I’ve seen comments about the “end of Silicon Valley” as early as 1993.

Though back then you could get a house in Cupertino for 300k?

It’s now $3M.

This has some effect and makes living here to start a company higher risk.

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by raldi on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @12:52PM (#25432794)
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by fossuser on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @01:56PM (#25433614)
Yep, that was the one.

It’s nearly the exact same conversation you see today. It’s a little wild to me that they thought housing prices were high then.

It makes me wonder if in 2047 I’ll look back at this thread and think “only $2M - what were they complaining about? Can’t find a place today for less than $18M”

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by easde on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @03:48PM (#25435045)
Back then a software engineer at a well-known big company would make around $30-50k (not inflation adjusted). Combined with 1993's interest rates (~7%) $300k was quite steep.

Today the same engineer at a FAANG would make about $300k. Houses are about $2M and interest rates are about 2%, so relatively speaking things are cheaper. However, unlike in 1993, today's salaries are unlikely to grow by 10x over the next 30 years while the mortgage is paid off!

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by jedberg on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @11:58AM (#25432119)
A $300K house in 1993 is only $2M now. :)
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by refurb on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @09:45AM (#25430744)
I don’t disagree, but no doubt Detroit felt the same way at one time.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by ajmurmann on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @10:12AM (#25430992)
I wonder if Detroit's economy was more fragile because everything built on a handful of enormous corporations. I don't think there was much of a scene of small, innovative companies that didn't depend on the enormous corporations to be in business. Silicon Valley is full of start ups that can be successful on their own. What's really at the heart of SV is the system that makes startups. That's the universities, VCs and incubators.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by joubert on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @10:32AM (#25431166)
Some history from Slate's article, "How Did Detroit Become Motor City?"[0] that speak to the points you make:

> everything built on a handful of enormous corporations

"Second, automotive executives in early-20th-century Detroit behaved a lot like Silicon Valley executives today: They regularly switched companies and launched spinoffs and startups. This culture of cross-pollination spread innovative manufacturing and design ideas among the Detroit manufacturers. Distant competitors couldn’t keep up with Motown’s research and development operations and eventually failed or sold themselves to Detroit."

> I don't think there was much of a scene of small, innovative companies that didn't depend on the enormous corporations to be in business

"The people who built the car’s parts eventually learned so much about automotive manufacturing that they went on to launch their own brands. Olds’ subcontractors included the Briscoe brothers, who helped build Buick, and machinist Henry Leland, who created Cadillac and Lincoln. The Dodge brothers also cut their teeth making parts for both Olds and Henry Ford. Ransom Olds, himself, eventually left Olds Motor Works to found the REO car company. A few other executives from Olds founded Chalmers and Hudson. William Durant, the man behind General Motors, was twice forced out of the company, forming Chevrolet and later Durant Motors while he was away. All of these ventures were based in or near Detroit."

[0] https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/02/why-are-all-the-...

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by pembrook on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @10:49AM (#25431328)
There were thousands of automotive upstarts prior to the consolidation into GM, Ford and Chrysler, here's just a list of the notable ones: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_defunct_automobile_man...

This doesn't even include the thousands of automotive supplier upstarts in every part of the supply chain from bolts to tires to tooling.

Similar to Silicon Valley, Detroit was also globally dominant in automotive production prior to 1929 (with 90% of production centered there).

Germany and Japan didn't get seriously into the automotive game until the post-WWII era. And China not until the 2000s. But when they did, they become competitive quite quickly.

You're naive if you don't think the same thing will happen with internet companies. Today the US only represents under 15% of automotive production globally.

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by bluedino on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @11:31AM (#25431805)
Detroit never diversified.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by thorwasdfasdf on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @01:57PM (#25433634)
All it takes is for some other area to reach some critical mass, to gain a reputation for tech and reach a certain tech size. Once that happens, all that pent up CA move out demand will start prevail.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by vmchale on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @10:09AM (#25430959)
Universities help I think. Stanford, Berkeley &c. Many great public universities and many great universities!
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by pembrook on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @11:01AM (#25431444)
The east coast has entire Ivy League and yet no Silicon Valley. Also, how do you explain Seattle?
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by brandnewlow on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @11:42AM (#25431924)
Many of the brightest on the East Coast get sucked into finance.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by alistairSH on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @12:04PM (#25432185)
This. Even ignoring the number of students that go study banking/finance in college, the banking/finance industry also employs many CS and math graduates.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by wskinner on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @11:12AM (#25431574)
University of Washington is a great university. But it does seem like presence of universities is at most a small factor here.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by deepnotderp on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @01:50PM (#25433540)
That's his point, Seattle is a tech center without many major universities.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by umeshunni on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @11:42AM (#25431926)
Seattle because Amazon hires and relocates thousands of engineers there who then quit or are PIPed a year or two later, leaving them looking for new opportunities or building new companies.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by SubuSS on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @12:49PM (#25432749)
Pre-2020 Seattle (I do believe a SF like reckoning is on the horizons for Seattle as well because of political overreach on corporations) in fact might be the exact talent sink and hence danger to Bay Area.

Seattle at one point had Microsoft as the hub, Amazon came on the scenes in 2000s - once they both reached critical mass, there was practically no stopping the growth because engineers had an alternative. Eventually we had FB/Twitter/Snap et al starting offices here and having massive presences which led to present day. If only the weather wasn't what it is, I think we would have reached this ~20 yrs ago.

I don't know if it is going to be Austin / Boulder - but once any of those cities build two equally good employment opportunities, it is going to be a real contender. This is what makes TSLA / Oracle move significant: till now what were outposts are becoming real hubs.

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by lsllc on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @01:05AM (#25439592)
Don't forget non-competes which CA outlaws. Job mobility is key to innovation without worrying about getting sued by your former employer.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by crakhamster01 on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @02:39PM (#25434118)
If you're a software engineer based out of the NY area, almost every recruiting message you get on LinkedIn will be from a fintech company/bank/hedge fund. NY is probably the second biggest tech hub in the US outside of SV, but most engineers work in one of those aforementioned sectors.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by thevardanian on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @12:56PM (#25432846)
A lot of East coast Ivy League grads simply either go into the public sector, or finance. They essentially feed into either D.C. or New York.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by sidpatil on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @06:15PM (#25436719)
The East Coast had Bell Labs, Digital Equipment Corporation, IBM, etc., all of which were absolute powerhouses at various point.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by erichocean on Monday December 14, 2020 @11:24PM (#25426988)
> Nonetheless, the population growth remains net positive.

In 2019, California had negative population growth.

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by dmode on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @12:25AM (#25427310)
I think you two are saying two different things. Population in California actually went up. But the growth rate was lower than previous years.
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by erichocean on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:02PM (#25435796)
"Population Shrinks in California, Still Most Populous State" — NBC Los Angeles, May 2, 2020 [0]

> California had a population of 39.78 million as of January [2020], the state Department of Finance said, down from its previous report of 39.96 million residents in July [2019].

That's the most recent 6 month period we have reported numbers for, and occurred in the 2nd half of 2019. For the full year in 2019, population was still slightly up overall.

[0] https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/population-shrinks-in-cal....

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by chrisbolt on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @12:23AM (#25427304)
Citation?
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by pwinnski on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @09:53AM (#25430813)
GP is incorrect. California's growth was a record low, but it was still growth.

https://www.politico.com/news/2020/05/05/california-populati...

Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by erichocean on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:06PM (#25435833)
Re:Silicon Valley exodus: Bay Area tech companies leaving fo... by erichocean on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @05:05PM (#25435830)
I cited it in a reply to my own comment, but here's the link: https://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/population-shrinks-in-cal...