It's almost like we live in a world that's reeling from the externalities of unfettered global capital. No need to end it, just need to break the tragedy of the commons that makes it so cheap to cause global problems.

"fettered" capital has a long history of ecological disasters too...

https://socialist-alliance.org/alliance-voices/ecological-di...

In fact the above link doesn't even mention the whaling atrocity:

https://earthtrust.org/savethewhalesintl/homepage/busting-pi...

My point being - clearly capitalism isn't the cause of ecological ruin.

Pretending that the only options are two extreme ends of a solution scale isn't operating in good faith.

Clearly, capitalism isn't the only possible cause of ecological ruin. In this case, however, it appears to be allowing _everyone involved_ to shirk the responsibility to pay for the damage they cause.

I’m not pretending those are the only options - I’m saying that in a nominally anti-capitalist country, they wrought massive ecological destruction.

How did you ever come to that conclusion by reading the article?!?

If anything, the point of the article is that MORE things should be priced in. Nature's value should be analyzed from a monetary point of view and you shouldn't be allowed to destroy it at 0 cost.

Who determines the value of nature? Would you be satisfied letting a market do that, instead of a centralized authority?

The fact that “money” is still involved has nothing to do with this argument. Even the Soviet Union issued currency.

What determines the value of anything?

We do it the same way we do with everything else:

> The economy of the United States is that of a highly developed country with a mixed economy

> A mixed economy is variously defined as an economic system blending elements of a market economy with elements of a planned economy, free markets with state interventionism, or private enterprise with public enterprise.

Getting back to your question:

We establish a market for this, guided/corrected by state intervention if and when needed.

You can actually quantify the specific impact that loss of shoreline has on tourism, fishing etc.

Fundamentally capitalism isn't about pricing things, it's about growth and extracting a profit.

I think it’s more that a single system runs the world so any global issue is assumed to be the fault of that system. Which kind of ignores how every other system also loves oil etc.

Funny how few people seem to understand a "mixed" economic system, despite it being virtually the only extant economic system.

It should be.

Well you’re more honest than most, and I respect that.

I see capitalism as a tool in our belt, one that is incredibly powerful but not always the best for a specific job. Like using a hammer on a screw, sure it might work eventually, but its not easy. Though it doesn't mean you should throw away your hammer.

this metaphor may have over stayed its welcome.

Given their effect on how we think and live our lives, economic systems are much more than tools. We adapt ourselves to fit to them rather than using them for our own purposes.

I don't see how that is different from a good tool. I purchased a brad-nailer recently and it has changed the way I work with wood. I now look at woodworking problems completely differently. It's like moving from a text editor to an IDE. The developers of today often have different skills than before based on the tools they have at hand.

In this analogy, you look at woodworking problems differently and might take on new projects but you still generally pick the same type of problem to work on with your newfound tool and retain the same system of values towards woodworking.

With economic systems, almost every action and thought-pattern you take in your daily life are reoriented according to the pressures you are subjected to. Even things that seem completely natural like the concept of a "hobby" or "free time" are massively different to previous eras and patterns of thought.

Capitalism can't be ended, it just a word for what people do when they are free to generate and exchange value.

Not really no, it can be ended by simply changing the idea of land ownership, for example.

Land ownership in it's modern form didn't happen in a voluntary way, it was forced through violence.

Getting rid of private land ownership is one of the many reasons I can never get on board with more collectivist ideologies that support that. The idea is flawed in itself and we've seen it doesn't lead to good things when it is tried.

Even the soviets came to that conclusion during their existence, starting with adopting leasing and then near the end full ownership for agriculture and then eventually for homes.

I still remember a friend from college telling me how his father had to retain his property after the fall of the USSR and new land rights were established in one of the now former satellite states, with a gun and an axe.

Not to create a false dichotomy but I'll take a stable slightly coercive economic system over a system that requires me to use violence to keep what is mine.

Private property entirely depends on violence -- that's not hyperbole, there's ultimately no other compelling force to enforce societal norms and rules (see: police).

It's only our familiarity and compliance with the system that prevents us from encountering that violence.

Economic transactions are a mediation in place of violence.

Exactly. It is the worst system, except for all the others that have been tried.

“Business is war.”

That is very much a false dichotomy - and obviously so, because it simply means you have no idea of what Capitalism can cost you, and even less idea of what it has cost you already.

For example your axe and gun won't help you when your health insurance company decides that your pre-existing condition is too expensive to insure and your medical costs are now 100% your own responsibility - which is something that causes the bankruptcy of around 500,000 Americans every year.

Or when there's a major financial crash and a bank decides that it needs to steal your home from under you, whether or not you're underwater on your mortgage.

These are not hypotheticals. These are all things that have happened, are happening, and are likely to continue happening.

GDP is not the issue, but a political and economic system which increases personal selfishness at the expense of others is. You can argue that collectivist solutions have the same problem, and to an extent you'll be right. But it's a long way from there to pretending that this is the best of all possible worlds, because there are economies which prove that isn't true.

A hybrid capitalist system with social elements for healthcare and education and proper regulation is probably a better system. But those things are a far cry from talking about getting rid of private property and capitalism all together.

I believe evolving our current system and maintaining certain elements is better than getting rid of it all together. I see reactions like yours as throwing the baby out with the bathwater when there are more level headed approaches we can take like limiting lobbying to course correct.

Edit: This is my US centric view, I realized after the fact that we may not be in the same place since this is a global forum

Land ownership in it's modern form is the alternative to constant violence.

There were some alternatives presented but not accepted. In the history of warfare, terrain set boundaries because the defenders had substantial advantage over attackers. I own this side of the river, you own that one. But from an ecological policy standpoint, it’s a disaster. Neither of us own the river, but if I dump shit into it and you have a port at the mouth, then my problems become your problems.

The alternative proposal was to divide government along watershed boundaries. Spain and France are still divided by the Pyrenees, because ridge lines are the same boundaries on both maps. But the Rhine and the Rhone say that France is divided from Germany, Italy, and Benelux all wrong:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_watershed#/media/File...

The river would instead become the middle of a territory, not the edges. My hamlet “owns” the valley it sits in. The county owns the tributary that flows past my hamlet and into another tributary. The state owns the tributary all the way to the Rhone, our nation or a union owns the entire Rhone, and a regional group oversees the Mediterranean, while the UN oversees the oceans in general, when regions don’t agree with themselves or among each other.

Anyone who muddies our water is in a direct chain of accountability to everyone down stream.

Logistically this is a nightmare. We’ve wiped out any cultures who might have worked this way, and those that remain won’t move political boundaries except under extreme duress, except to expand them (see point 1). But it does have a very Conway’s Law feel to it.

I was more thinking of the mutualist's idea of land ownership, I don't think it would be any more violent than the current system.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutualism_(economic_theory)#Us...

Basically you can only "own" land if you personally actually use it, not just rent it (or do nothing with it).

Capitalism always exists. It is the management of scarce resources. Usually we use money to control the flow of very scarce resources. But it does not have to be money. A quota system is nothing more than a form of money but itemized.

I believe you are confusing markets with capitalism.

Capitalism depends entirely on the existence of functioning markets. It is the philosophy that recognizes their value and promotes them.

Yes, but you can have socialism with markets too.

> Not really no, it can be ended by simply changing the idea of land ownership, for example.

That's a very narrow view of capitalism.