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Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by foota on Saturday December 12, 2020 @11:12PM (#25404251)
It seems like the problem is that there is disclosing as a zero day isn't seen as a credible thread, since it's generally seen as bad practice. If security researchers wanted to try and collect more they could in theory form some kind of union to keep up the price of bounties, with like a middle agent pricing the bounty and disclosing the vulnerability if the price isn't met. Maybe combine with some kind of insurance, such that if a company doesn't pay out the bounty the researcher can still collect. I don't know if this would count as extortion though, so it might not even be legal.

Really this seems like a shady security company when I describe it like that.

Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by mosselman on Sunday December 13, 2020 @01:14AM (#25404687)
> some kind of union to keep up the price of bounties, with like a middle agent pricing the bounty and disclosing the vulnerability if the price isn't met

So a hacker group that will blackmail companies?

$7500 for spending anywhere less than a month on something is a pretty decent compensation.

You also seem to forget that despite the fairness of the compensation, disclosing the vulnerability could damage real users, in this case Facebook’s.

If you think $7500 for finding something like this is not enough, you shouldn’t do it. You wouldn’t clean toilets for $1 a month either right?

Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by DrJaws on Sunday December 13, 2020 @05:21AM (#25405546)
It could be a decent compensation if you were assured that you will get the money, but you don't know and it is probably that you can't find anything in months.
Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by Nowado on Sunday December 13, 2020 @01:35AM (#25404763)
If cleaning toilets paid $1 a month, but required enough skill that you could realistically get everyone who can do that on board, you now have a leverage of having all the toilets in some region dirty. That pays more than $1.

Literally the point of unions (and big part of companies).

Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by mosselman on Sunday December 13, 2020 @02:36AM (#25404976)
I understand the concept of unions and I am all for them.

Forcing companies to pay a lot for found exploits is something completely different though.

An important distinction is that the hackers are not employees of the company who are underpaid or mistreated somehow. Nobody is forcing these people to look for bugs.

The people who are after bug bounties get a kick out of finding cool security issues. I am sure a part of them would still be doing it even if there were no reward.

The rewards for these kinds of things are pretty public, so you can guess how much you will get paid for finding certain security bugs. If the amounts are too low, again, just don't do it.

Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by byecomputer on Sunday December 13, 2020 @05:49AM (#25405654)
> An important distinction is that the hackers are not employees of the company who are underpaid or mistreated somehow. Nobody is forcing these people to look for bugs.

> The people who are after bug bounties get a kick out of finding cool security issues. I am sure a part of them would still be doing it even if there were no reward.

"Nobody's forcing them to" and "they'd probably do it for free anyway" aren't what I'd consider valid reasons to keep something on a freelance basis. Perhaps "it's an infrequent odd-job" is a more sensible rationale, if there was one

Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by foota on Sunday December 13, 2020 @06:53AM (#25405926)
To be clear, I wasn't trying to make a moral statement on whether they should do this, I just think it's interesting.

I think that forcing companies to recognize and deal with vulnerabilities is a good thing, so to the degree this kind of setup would do that it wouldn't be all bad, but trying to extract additional gains beyond that exposure isn't good (e.g., companies would pay more to prevent bad PR from a threat to expose something than just to fix a vulnerability due to the risk it presents them, and the former is 'artificial' in this case so it wouldn't be efficient for a group to try to extract that from someone).

That is, today companies have some existential risk that a cyber security incident causes great harm to them (think: sony hacks, cambridge analytica), the existence of white hats researching these vulnerabilities and disclosing them responsible gives companies an avenue to address this risk, likely at a lower cost premium relative to hiring security teams to try and find them. I think that it's easier for companies to recognize and deal with these risks now than it used to be, and easier for security researchers to get paid for it. These are both good things, but it is quite possible that the risk posed by cyber security threats to companies is generally worth more than they're paying in aggregate (2 million in vuln fees quotes in their latest report, not much at all given the impact), so I think that some structure that would allow researchers to force companies to up the ante would be a good thing, but this is hard since it's a completely one sided market and companies can just accept the risk of an incident occurring rather than pay, even if it's inefficient.

Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by serial_dev on Sunday December 13, 2020 @04:05AM (#25405265)
> Forcing companies to pay a lot for found exploits is something completely different though.

Oh, no, the horror! Almost a trillion dollar company would need to pay a couple of extra grands to a security researcher who discovered an enormous vulnerability.

Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by plankers on Sunday December 13, 2020 @03:30AM (#25405150)
+1 for security researchers' union. Reminds me of the bounty hunters' guild in the Mandalorian but with fewer blasters.
Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by brodie on Sunday December 13, 2020 @04:10AM (#25405280)
I wish modern society had more guilds in general. So many interesting things are possible when likeminded people come together.
Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by DaiPlusPlus on Sunday December 13, 2020 @06:41AM (#25405869)
Like economic protectionism?
Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by matheusmoreira on Sunday December 13, 2020 @10:14AM (#25407074)
Yes. Why should that be the privilege of rich corporations and governments? All workers should also try to maximize their leverage.
Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by smolder on Sunday December 13, 2020 @09:48AM (#25406894)
We have lots of that already, but it's more "protect the rich" than "protect our IT workers"
Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by pc86 on Sunday December 13, 2020 @01:31PM (#25408830)
I hate to break it to you but the people saying things like "eat the rich" lump Bezos/Zuckerberg and the programmers/IT folks working for them into roughly the same bucket.
Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by smolder on Tuesday December 15, 2020 @04:23AM (#25428499)
Who said to eat anyone?
Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by plankers on Wednesday December 16, 2020 @11:55PM (#25452632)
Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by IfOnlyYouKnew on Sunday December 13, 2020 @09:45AM (#25406868)
It "isn't seen as a credible thread" because it's immoral.

Sequencing plays a major role here. And while that may seem somewhat arbitrary, it is significant.

(Similar case, that, for some reason tech people have entirely too much trouble understanding: Announce "I'm going to shoot this gun at that target". Person, having heard you, walks and stands in front of the target. Are you still allowed/morally right to shoot?)

Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by matheusmoreira on Sunday December 13, 2020 @10:19AM (#25407111)
What's immoral is allowing the company to leave the vulnerability unfixed. It's their system, their vulnerability is their responsibility. They should be glad they were contacted by a relatively harmless person and pay them a fair value for doing work they didn't even know they needed. If they refuse to fix it, the moral thing to do is to disclose it so that the company has no choice but to fix it.
Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by IfOnlyYouKnew on Sunday December 13, 2020 @09:45PM (#25412971)
thanks for proving my point?
Re:I Hacked into Facebook's Legal Department Admin Panel by tptacek on Sunday December 13, 2020 @01:40PM (#25408906)
Disclosing the vulnerability isn't a credible threat because Facebook essentially lets you disclose the vulnerability anyways. We are commenting on a thread about a dude who disclosed a vulnerability after getting a $7000 bounty.