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Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by Dig1t on Thursday December 10, 2020 @06:12PM (#25380072)
Volkswagen should be able to make their cars as difficult to repair or modify as they want. There are so many other options for cars out there, if I care about modifying my car why would I buy a Volkswagen in the first place? I'll just go buy a different car that is more friendly for what I want to do.
Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by donmcronald on Thursday December 10, 2020 @09:45PM (#25381664)
Except you'll have the Volkswagon silo, the Ford silo, the GM silo, etc. and they'll all start engaging in monopolistic behavior for servicing because they have a monopoly over repairing your specific brand of car. Call it a tacit collusion monopoly and throw in the sunk cost of a car to make it even worse. If everyone in the market behaves the same, there's no benefit to selling your car and getting another because the service costs won't change.

The best example of this that demonstrates what you'd end up with is the cost of key fob programming. The actual cost of the hardware is trivial but a dealership will charge you $250-500 to program a new one because they have a monopoly on programming the fobs for their brand. Those things should cost $50 max IMO.

The scary thing is the vehicle industry is moving this way for everything and if nothing changes it's eventually going to become extremely difficult / expensive to own a vehicle that's not under warranty. I wouldn't be surprised if they start serializing parts and then sell service plans that increase in price as your car ages. You'll pay forever.

Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by stonedartist on Friday December 11, 2020 @12:20AM (#25382591)
Several modern cars are actually moving in the direction of gaining more and more central control competitively. Last year we had to remove the fuse in the car battery for maintenance, and also because the battery needed a little cleaning - while we were in a remote village with no access to proper internet connection. Little did we know that after re-inserting the same fuse back to the battery, the media system would stop working. The media LCD screen started showing a "Enter the pin to unlock the media system" screen! And we do not have the pin, we were never given a pin. Hence we lost access to the car GPS and media system altogether in an unknown territory. We somehow got back to home and had to book an appointment with the car dealership for the technician to unlock our car media system! He plugged his device and generated the pin that's signed/paired with our specific car and then used it to unlock the media system.

It is indeed scary that even car manufacturers are moving towards central control of every little thing in your car.

The last thing I want to see with all these tech companies following Apple's footsteps in a lot of things, is to see the auto industry becoming like Apple.

Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by gambiting on Friday December 11, 2020 @04:02AM (#25383747)
I'm sorry, but that's really funny to me - not because I'm laughing at your misfortunes of course, but because of how easily people forget history or are simply unaware of it.

Media systems locking due to the lack of power is not a new problem. I do remember having the exact same problem on my 1994 Passat, where the radio would lock itself and you had to go to the dealer to have it unlocked.

>>And we do not have the pin, we were never given a pin

Literally the same problem, except 25 years later :P Manufacturers almost never issued these special pins to unlock radios.

And like, disconnecting the battery has always been a problem in cars, BMWs, Mercs, Opels, Peugeots, Fiats - I've had them all and they all did something weird if you disconnected the battery - more often than not, a check engine light would pop up and you had to bring it to the dealer to clear it. This is not new.

Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by stonedartist on Friday December 11, 2020 @06:49AM (#25384698)
We were not aware of that and that was definitely a new experience for us. My father owns a car bought a decade ago and we can easily fix and swap any parts we wish without having to worry about getting sign-off from the car "owners" :D I don't see why that would happen, and seeing that as a common practice among other car manufacturers does not make it any less annoying.
Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by gambiting on Thursday December 10, 2020 @07:11PM (#25380616)
Yes, they should be able to, of course. But it's enshrined in law, both EU and US, that other manufactuers can make compatible replacement parts for cars. A manufactuer doesn't get to say what parts you can put in your car after you bought it. You don't have to buy genuiene OEM volkswagen brake pads or clutches - you can buy and install 3rd party ones, and legally Volkswagen cannot forbid you from doing so, and neither can they forbid anyone from manufacturing those replacement parts.
Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by enos_feedler on Thursday December 10, 2020 @08:13PM (#25381113)
Well it sounds like this law is outdated and needs to align with the times. It should be the same as current smartphone laws.
Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by arcticbull on Thursday December 10, 2020 @11:17PM (#25382224)
Uh, no thanks man. The fact things have gotten worse in some aspects of our lives doesn't mean we need to regress the things that are actually working so well you didn't even know it was an issue. If anything this is an argument for the opposite of what you're suggesting.

What I don't get is why you're advocating for your own freedoms to be taken away. Don't carry water for the car companies, if they want more freedoms they can use their money and lobby for it. You don't need to do their job pro bono, leave that up to Citizens United.

Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by enos_feedler on Friday December 11, 2020 @02:37AM (#25383345)
Freedom will come from market choice. I fight for the freedom of car companies to make their own choices on how their products can be used. Let them apply their own restrictions. Thats freedom
Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by gambiting on Friday December 11, 2020 @02:49AM (#25383400)
Like.....that's an incredibly twisted logic. How is it freedom, when a corporation gets to dictate how you use their product after its bought and paid for?? That's not freedom, not in any sense of the word. Corporations should be free to manufacture any car in any way they like. But they shouldn't be able to tell us what to do with our property, don't you see or appreciate having a freedom to do whatever and however you please with items that you have bought?

It's like arguing that you should be able to enter an employment contract that stipulates physical punishment for making mistakes at work - surely, being able to enter such contract is freedom! If you don't like it, go somewhere else, market forces will sort it out! And yet, we as society have decided that no, physical punishment is not acceptable and you cannot waive your right to be free of it. That's freedom. Not what you are saying.

Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by enos_feedler on Monday December 14, 2020 @01:28AM (#25414168)
I feel like I _can_ do whatever I please with items I bought. I see the iPhone as an integrated product. There is no boundary between semiconductor, system board, operating system, application runtime, and the 3rd party app ecosystem. It is all one product. Being able to split this apart so I can tinker at the interfaces is not something I demand from something I pay for. Whatever I try to do outside of their expected use of the product is sort of a crapshoot. It says nothing about freedom.

Physical punishment is just a terrible comparison.

Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by arcticbull on Monday December 14, 2020 @12:38PM (#25420447)
This neither lines up with reality (as in there are defined boundaries as devices are made by people on different teams each operating on their own abstractions) or with the reality we want to see.

Part of the trade-off that large companies accept in being allowed to become mega-players in a space is that to make up for the lack of individual power, the government may step in and make the world better for individuals at the expense of the larger companies by, for instance, mandating freedoms: freedom to repair (especially in the case of cars), freedom to re-sell (that's the first-sale doctrine in case you're curious), and so on.

We're talking about individual freedoms.

Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by arcticbull on Friday December 11, 2020 @04:15AM (#25383815)
Again you didn't answer my question. Why are you advocating to have your own rights/freedoms removed for the benefit of the company? Not even the company is asking for that. Why don't you leave advocating for the company to paid advocates of the company?

Let's be super clear, once you purchase the car, it's not their product, it's your car. That's how ownership works. Once it is in your physical lawful possession, it is your to do with as you please. The entire legal system is built around this idea.

For instance, if someone steals my car and wrecks it, does Volkswagen sue the car thief for damages, or do I? If you answered anything other than Volkswagen, it's not "their product" anymore.

Re:Cydia, the original app store, sues Apple on antitrust gr... by Chernobog on Thursday December 10, 2020 @06:30PM (#25380224)
I'm not sure they should. One thing is the environmental aspect, we want to avoid unnecessary waste and resource usage since that is one of the things destroying our planet. But another thing is, what happens when the market shifts heavily in a direction that is bad for the consumer?

Sure, you have a lot of good car choices today, but at some point it might be hard to find a car that has your other desirable specs in addition to being repair and modification friendly.

If everyone who bought a car was a well informed with at least a minimum of knowledge of cars, in addition to being able to calculate how repair costs will affect them over the time they own it, then sure. Let the market sort itself out. Since many aren't, let's keep regulations in place to ensure desirable properties.

Heck, imagine what safety features cars would lack if they weren't government mandated requirements...