News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Circulation of Elites by mncharity on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:09PM (#25360848)
> The role of ordinary people in such transformation is not that of initiators or principal actors, but as followers and supporters of one elite or another.

Hmm. I saw a fun talk years back. Ottoman Egyptian farmers using strikes to discipline local elites. If say a dominant local family was abusing power to general dissatisfaction, people would leave the village, staying with kin in nearby villages. The drop in village production would bring an Ottoman official to town, with little patience for local elites: "you will fix this, or else". So differential support of overlapping elites is perhaps richer in possibilities than that quote suggests.

Re:Circulation of Elites by natmaka on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:38PM (#25361220)
"Secessio plebis (withdrawal of the commoners, or secession of the plebs) was an informal exercise of power by Rome's plebeian citizens, similar in concept to the general strike."

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secessio_plebis

Re:Circulation of Elites by PaulAJ on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:34PM (#25361162)
This is the theory described in the "book within a book" in Orwell's "1984". In it "Emmanuel Goldstein" (roughly equivalent to Trotsky) describes how revolutions occur when the Middle co-opt the Low to displace the High. The new High then push the Low back where they came from. Over time a new Middle emerges, and the cycle repeats.
Re:Circulation of Elites by 0_____0 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:20AM (#25360238)
I'm midway through reading "Why Nations Fail" and the book makes a case very early on that the replacement of elites with other elites is exactly what happens even when something akin to a coup or revolution happens. Case in point, Latin America, where extractive political and economic institutions have been passed from regime to regime, from the days of Spanish conquest all the way up through the CIA backed coups and the modern regimes.
Re:Circulation of Elites by jancsika on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:12PM (#25360881)
At least lately, it seems way more relevant to watch second-order effects of a short/mid- term play come back to bite the homogenized class of elites in the ass.

E.g., fruit rotting on the vines in Alabama back in 2012 or so because they passed a law essentially deputizing all police to be ICE agents. Turns out it's lucrative to scream "they took yer jobs" on cable news all day long, but not so lucrative to accidentally energize a bunch of racists into taking action on it. And you can bet that if "ordinary people" hadn't been completely on board, they'd have burned down the statehouse before letting "Boss Hogg" restrict what the "Duke Boys" can do on their own farms. (Granted, Dukes of Hazzard was Georgia, but you get the drift.)

Also-- "circulation of elites" seems more fitting to describe what happens when you see someone like David Frum start appearing regularly on MSNBC instead of Fox News.

Re:Circulation of Elites by ableal on Friday December 11, 2020 @12:59PM (#25388600)
This Wikipedia page doesn't have a bibliography, but the russian version shows some works, namely: Pareto, V. 1916. Trattato di Sociologia Generale (Treatise on General Sociology).

which a cursory search indicates was also titled The Mind and Society in English translation.

This page about it seems good: http://www.eoht.info/page/Treatise%20on%20General%20Sociolog...

Re:Circulation of Elites by polynomial on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:34AM (#25359575)
Thanks for posting this! Although citing the "80/20" rule is somewhat ubiquitous in engineering and moreover project management circles, Pareto is still much underrated, imho.
Re:Circulation of Elites by toyg on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:21PM (#25361809)
One thing that really lacks from Pareto’s thoughts on this, imho, probably because of his historical context, is the fact that population tends to expand. Even if it might be true that elites often simply get replaced by new sets of people who will in turn become elites, it’s also true that sometimes (particularly in the last couple of centuries) such new elites can end up being larger - sometimes as a result of demographic factors (population underneath grows, so elites have to scale up as well to ensure their management), sometimes of ideological factors (e.g. a government goes from centralism to federalism, generating a lot of new intermediate roles). Which is a good thing.

Pareto’s insights too often end up being used as a call for passive cynicism. IMHO they should be seen more as a statement of possibility: elites do fall, and if you really work to ensure that fall maybe you can be the next in line, because some elite will always appear at some point and this time it might be large enough to include you.

Re:Circulation of Elites by marcus_holmes on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:11PM (#25361631)
This also happens with invasions. For example, The Roman and Norman invasions of Britain replaced the ruling class while leaving the bulk of the population intact. As opposed to the Viking and Saxon invasion/migrations, which displaced the population.
Re:Circulation of Elites by gdubs on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:50AM (#25359808)
“Not only are intelligence and aptitudes unequally distributed among the members of society, but the residues as well.“

Maybe it’s just early in the morning here, but I’m having trouble parsing this sentence. What does “the residues” mean in this context?

Re:Circulation of Elites by bsima on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:02AM (#25360014)
I think it refers to downstream effects of intelligence and aptitudes. For example if I'm really smart, and I make a lot of money and leave my children a generous inheritance, their privilege is a residue of my gifted aptitude.
Re:Circulation of Elites by urubu on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:46AM (#25360580)
Pareto made a distinction between 'residues' (psychological bases underlying social action) and 'derivations' (rationalizations by members of society as justifications of those actions). It might be used in that sense here.
Re:Circulation of Elites by Jugurtha on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:53AM (#25360659)
The little things which are left, but here's a throwback to "Cauchy's residue theorem"[0] to make this more fun.

You can also think of power spectrum analysis, not all frequencies have the same "power".

Though in a time-frequency representation, not all frequencies have the same energy at every moment.

- [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residue_theorem

Re:Circulation of Elites by SpicyLemonZest on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:52AM (#25359846)
It's not just you. I'm not familiar with this usage of the term.
Re:Circulation of Elites by karmakaze on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:34AM (#25360426)
I sort of read that as 'residuals' which is still used to describe some types of benefits.
Re:Circulation of Elites by divtiwari on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:47PM (#25361338)
On reading this, I feel Bioleninism is a concept which everyone should read upon. A brilliant concept which starts making a lot of sense given the times we live in.
Re:Circulation of Elites by AnimalMuppet on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:15PM (#25361702)
Could you give a bit more detail? Like, why you think it's relevant?
Re:Circulation of Elites by billiam on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @12:33PM (#25361149)
I could be wrong, but despite the astute analysis by Pareto that explains the persistence of elites through "revolutions," he doesn't have too many ideas about how the perfect social mobility that would make societies efficient (governed by the most qualified) can actually be achieved. As I found when covering the revolutions of 1989 in Eastern Europe, the former Communist elites just transformed into the new post-Communist elites, and in many places (Hungary, Poland, Slovenia, etc) they are literally the same people. Or as the great moral philosopher Peter Townsend once said, "meet the new boss, same as the old boss."
Re:Circulation of Elites by toyg on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:12PM (#25361660)
As Tomasi di Lampedusa wrote in his masterpiece “il Gattopardo”: everything has to change so that nothing will change.

But let’s be fair to Pareto: he was actually a great intellectual of his age, a Renaissance man. You can’t really complain that he didn’t have a magic wand to fix all the problems he identified- if anything because nobody else ever did either.

Re:Circulation of Elites by maxrobot on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @10:15AM (#25359303)
It saddens me but it seems to fit life so well.
Re:Circulation of Elites by monkeynotes on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:01AM (#25359997)
Can anyone ELI5?
Re:Circulation of Elites by WJW on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @11:58AM (#25360725)
TLDR: after the revolution will have come and gone, you still won't be in charge.

Regime changes, whether forced by outside circumstances or from within a single society, just change one group of elites with another while the middle and lower classes stay mostly the same. Pareto (the originator of this theorem) thinks this is a basic conclusion from the fact that most people won't have the right combination of wealth, connections, intelligence, ambition and luck to take advantage of societal upheaval when opportunities present itself.

Re:Circulation of Elites by marcus_holmes on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @01:08PM (#25361570)
China had an emperor surrounded by an impenetrable bureacracy of "elites".

Then they had a communist revolution, overthrew the government, executed all the elites.

Now they have a chairman, surrounded by an impenetrable bureacracy of "elites".

Re:Circulation of Elites by Chris2048 on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @04:30PM (#25365394)
I'm not the biggest fan of CPP, but I have to admit they seems to have improved the life's of most Chinese.
Re:Circulation of Elites by unsigner on Thursday December 10, 2020 @08:10AM (#25373281)
In the past 40-ish years, yes; in the previous 40 years, they inflicted a lot of suffering on the country.
Re:Circulation of Elites by marcus_holmes on Thursday December 10, 2020 @02:37AM (#25370935)
Same for the Russians, I think