News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by ragnese on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @01:41PM (#25349575)
I think the truth is that money wins. It doesn't really matter that GPLv3 is stricter than 2. Corporate interests didn't like GPLv2 either. They just dealt with it to use Linux. I think the current state of things was basically inevitable. Corporations love open source because it means they can outsource labor to "the community" and use that labor to profit on their actual cash cows.

The free software fight has already lost in spirit. It's not even clear that it ever could have really survived with how complex software has become, anyway. Are any of us really able to customize MS Excel to do something new that we want anyway?

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by pmoriarty on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @03:45PM (#25351117)
"I think the truth is that money wins.. the current state of things was basically inevitable"

If corporate money always wins, then why do we have environmental legislation, worker protection laws, 40 hour work weeks, overtime pay, anti-child labor laws, and unions?

Sure, in some places and in some cases these have been violated or aren't as strong as they could be, but you can't say they they don't exist and corporations and money always win.

Something else we need to keep in mind is that corporations are made of people, and the opinions of these people can and do change.

Plenty of things that used to be unthinkable in the past are now commonplace, and plenty of things (like slavery or segregation) that were ubiquitous and seemed inevitable to a lot of people back then came to be rejected by society at large.

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by ragnese on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @03:52PM (#25351194)
I mean... I get what you're saying, but most of the things you listed as victories over corporate money happened 100 years ago. That says something about the current struggle.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by pmoriarty on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @04:13PM (#25351419)
So should we give up because things are currently not going our way?
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by ragnese on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @04:44PM (#25351772)
Not at all. I was merely arguing against the assertion that GPLv3 was a mistake and that things would be different if GNU left it at GPLv2.

I'm an idealist. I do lots of things that are inconvenient and feel like a losing battle.

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by CJefferson on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @01:53PM (#25349742)
Various companies, Apple most notably, clearly avoid GPLv3. For years Mac OS X has had the last GPLv2 version of bash.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by Twirrim on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @01:57PM (#25349799)
Amazon had GPLv3 blacklisted when I worked there. Nothing new by way of legal concerns about GPLv3. No lawyer is going to advise a company to take actions that will likely see the company go to court to explore just how much of a license is legally enforceable, and just what it actually means.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by ragnese on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @03:54PM (#25351222)
And they also avoided GPLv2. Sure, they had bash, but all of the "coreutils" were the BSD flavors. That an exception was made for one or a couple of things doesn't exactly counter my claim very strongly.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by dwaite on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @05:15PM (#25352147)
They accepted the sister LGPLv2 license as the basis of WebKit, and had other tools like Samba integrated. They may have avoided the GPLv2 when easy, but they outright banned GPLv3 (froze bash and gcc on the last version while working to remove them; wrote their own from-scratch CIFS implementation to drop samba).
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by ragnese on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @08:36PM (#25354284)
They accepted those things because they had nothing else. The forked WebKit from KHTML, which was LGPL. It's not like they chose that license. Same with Samba. It was either take those things or invent something new. Especially at that point in Apple's history, they probably didn't have the resources to NIH everything. Today, that would be a different story, I'm sure.

I understand your point about outright banning GPLv3 vs just avoiding GPLv2. But I have to wonder what would have happened in an alternate timeline where KHTML, Samba, and GCC were all GPLv3 at the point in time where this universe's Apple adopted them. Would they have just skipped making their own browser and integrating with SMB?

Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by CountSessine on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @06:28PM (#25353028)
That’s probably more because of MacOS’s FreeBSD heritage. They used BSD tools where they could get them and used gnu where they must.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by ragnese on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @08:38PM (#25354301)
Sure. That's true. But follow the rabbit hole. Why do they have a BSD heritage? Why doesn't BSD use GNU software? It's anti-copyleft all the way down. Long before GPLv3.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by pjmlp on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:15AM (#25356140)
Because BSD is older than GNU, and NeXTSTEP was based on BSD.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by toast0 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @07:14PM (#25353533)
Running GNU coreutils with a highly BSD kernel is a recipe for sadness. If you don't believe me, try Debian GNU/kFreeBSD.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by ragnese on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @08:37PM (#25354291)
Like what? I install the GNU coreutils with macports on my work Mac. It seems fine.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by toast0 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @11:33PM (#25355387)
Sorry. I forgot coreutils doesn't mean core utilities, like ifconfig and route and netstat and those things.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by zests on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @06:07PM (#25352797)
Darwin is a BSD so maybe there is another explanation for that.
Re:We Love GPLv3, but Are Switching License to Apache 2.0 by pjmlp on Wednesday December 09, 2020 @02:14AM (#25356134)
And as we all know, FreeBSD has enjoyed plenty of Apple contributions upstream.

Without GPL, all commercial UNIXes would be around and Linux would be just another school clone.