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Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by sosborn on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:23PM (#25340880)
> Coming in guns drawn is not that uncommon in that scenario.

It really should be uncommon though.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by giantg2 on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:42PM (#25341014)
Why do you say that?
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by fredophile on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:42PM (#25341911)
If the expectation is that the cops will come in with weapons drawn any time they execute a warrant then we have to realize that this will result in people accidentally being killed. Does the standard for evidence for obtaining a search warrant justify the increased risk of someone innocent dying?

Some people would argue that not having guns drawn in this type of case would result in more police deaths. I agree but don't view this as a deal breaker. How many civilians will die with guns drawn vs how many police officers die without? Should we count civilian and police lives the same in this situation? Police officers are compensated for the risks they take and have protective gear like body armour to reduce this risk. In the linked video I don't see the police using any head covering other than ball caps. If they thought there was a risk why didn't they put on helmets? I'm sure the Tallahassee police have access to that kind of PPE. The fact that they chose not to wear full PPE suggests to me that they didn't believe there was a substantial threat in the home.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by giantg2 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @09:08AM (#25345243)
If she was compliant, they would typically ask everyone to exit the house before they enter to clear it. This scenario specifically took a different approach. I don't see a higher risk of innocent people being killed, so maybe you can gather some statistics on that since the scenario is really a counter example to that.

Every building search is considered high risk. It's not an extreme risk, which is why they didn't execute it as a no-knock with SWAT, but there is still risk. The actions taken appear to consistent with that level of risk.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by fredophile on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @12:40PM (#25348649)
> so maybe you can gather some statistics on that

Here's what a quick google search turned up.

This link [0] shows that US police kill over three times as many people, per capita, than Canadian police. However, I think there are other issues, like easy access to guns, that affect this stat so this isn't really a very useful stat for our discussion.

This group [1] has been collecting info on arrest related deaths but a quick look only showed me links to how they collect data and not the actual data. It also looks like they stopped their surveys in 2012.

This paper [2] has some of the most relevant stats I've found for our discussion and covers use of lethal force by police between 2009-2012. From their numbers, 83% of victims were armed or believed to be armed (this includes toy guns, etc) and over 93% of the deaths were from firearms. If we assume that the 7% of deaths were the police didn't shoot all apply to unarmed victims then 10% of the people killed by police were unarmed and shot. Their stats also show LEOs being killed in less than 2% of these incidents. Their numbers do show 9% of these cases resulting in an injury to LEOs but we don't have numbers on non-fatal police caused injuries so I don't want to compare apples to oranges.

[0] https://www.prisonpolicy.org/blog/2020/06/05/policekillings/ [1] https://www.bjs.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=82 [2] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6080222/

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by giantg2 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @01:25PM (#25349350)
I think I remember this paper from a while back, but read it based on a different perspective (ethnicity).

Unarmed in the context of this paper would only be as it applies to deadly weapons. The suspect could still pose a threat with an alternative weapon (such as a pipe) or even pose a threat with bare hands too. The percent of people killed without posing an immediate threat would be more appropriate, and was 5% (would like to see the details of those with prosecution metrics). I would guess that 5% that mostly fits in the 7% you mentioned (which includes cars, suffocation, falls, etc), but unfortunately the paper doesn't seem to get granular enough for that. So I don't think we can draw a good conclusion from this paper that there were more civilians unjustly shot by police than the police being shot by civilians (the paper leaves out non-fatal incidents too). On that note too, the 2% officer fatality rate you show would not be fully encompassing. Meaning, it would be missing encounters in which the suspect killed the officer without also being killed.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by aspaceman on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:12PM (#25341280)
Do not point a gun at something you do not intend to shoot.

There is no reason to draw your weapon in this context. Danger should be determined from context clues, not defaulted to the highest priority.

There is no reason in hell you can ever justify pointing a weapon at a child. Period. That goes beyond bad policing and into disrespecting guns and plain stupidity. This is someone’s home not a war zone.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by giantg2 on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:46PM (#25341529)
How about gang members under the age of 18?

It would be great if we had good video of how the gun was pointed and where the people were. It was likely only pointed up the stairs in a "low-ready" manner and not aimed. But we will never know.

How about defiantly refusing to open the door and a past conviction for assaulting an officer as context clues?

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by yibg on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:15PM (#25341699)
I honest would like to know, from your perspective when should a police officer NOT have gun drawn? Seems like you think there is danger lurking every where, so should cops just go around with assault rifles at the ready all the damn time?
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by giantg2 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @08:41AM (#25344852)
I didn't say guns should be drawn all the time. Someone's overly emotional and absolute statement incorrectly stated that guns should never be pointed a children. The scenario we are discussing is building searches, which are high risk and the behavior was appropriate in this example. Not to mention there is no evidence showing the guns being pointed directly at anyone.
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by fredophile on Monday December 07, 2020 @11:53PM (#25341997)
We have a video its at the very top of the link.

At least three pistols were drawn by officers entering the home. The first officer doesn't draw his weapon until after interacting with the suspect, being told her husband and children are home, and then entering the home. If she has a previous conviction for assaulting an officer that wouldn't matter since she was already removed from the situation at this point. The first and third pistols I saw were pointed at the floor the whole time. The second officer has his pistol aimed at the top of the stairs as he is walking towards the bottom of the stairway.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by giantg2 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @10:54AM (#25346890)
"We have a video its at the very top of the link. ... The second officer has his pistol aimed at the top of the stairs as he is walking towards the bottom of the stairway."

And like my comment said, we don't see any people at the top of the stairs, so we don't know if it was aimed at anyone or not. Even if there are people up there, we can't tell if the gun is aimed at anyone or pointed "low" (into the top few stairs) or at a higher angle to aim at a person as it's only a 10 degree or so difference in angle and we don't see the full scene. All we can do is make assumptions, which isn't helpful.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by fredophile on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @12:16PM (#25348225)
Based on the actions of the people we do see I don't think there was anyone visible at the top of the stairs. However, the reason for having a weapon up when doing corner drills or stair drills isn't because you're pointing at someone already in view, it's to have the weapon pointing at someone who comes into view. His weapon is up because he thinks someone might either step into view or become visible as he continues to move. He is the only LEO I see not pointing his weapon at the floor the whole time so his actions stand out to me.

He may have been following his SOPs perfectly. I don't think this is an appropriate SOP for LEOs to use in this situation. I don't think this case called for having weapons drawn at all. My view is that this SOP is likely to contribute to unnecessary civilian injuries and deaths.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by giantg2 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @01:46PM (#25349646)
Usually you have the gun up, but not aimed up (eg at the top few stairs but not above them), otherwise you're blocking your view of threats that are crouched or prone if you have the gun fully up and aimed at a standing adult torso level.

Why wouldn't this be appropriate when clearing a building with unknown threats when dealing with an uncooperative person? The only way it leads to unnecessary injuries is if the officers don't make a proper identification of a threat/non-threat, which can happen with the gun in other positions too.

This type of search wouldn't have been necessary anyways if she had complied immediately. They would have normally asked everyone to exit before doing their search, but once the suspect has been uncooperative and they gain entry they need to be proactive about the search to avoid evidence destruction or suspect fortifications given the suspect's actions. Now had she opened the door quickly, I would agree that the actions would not have been appropriate because you're supposed to clear the building by voluntary means first. In this case, the suspect's family declined that voluntary option by not complying.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by dsr_ on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:48PM (#25341061)
Because you never have "accidental" shootings when there are no guns involved?
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by giantg2 on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:58PM (#25341152)
How do you tell the difference between the ones without guns? (And knives, other weapons, bare hands)
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by tptacek on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:15PM (#25341301)
What situation can't you say that about? Should the cop handing you a city sticker ticket also have a gun drawn on you?
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by giantg2 on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:27PM (#25341381)
So you're clearing house as part of a warrant and you know what threats are in it? Police would love a psychic like you. Maybe we should let you go in first all the time.
Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by tptacek on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:31PM (#25341415)
If it was an option? And I didn't have to travel? And I could review the warrant application and just "go in first" for houses like this woman's, and Breonna Taylor's? Ok?

Being a police officer isn't close to one of the most dangerous jobs in America, but being in contact with an adversarial police officer is one of the most dangerous situations to be in. I'd be more afraid of the police, like many people.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by giantg2 on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:41PM (#25341499)
You would have to go in for all of them because it's your job, not pick and choose.

"Being a police officer isn't close to one of the most dangerous jobs in America, but being in contact with an adversarial police officer is one of the most dangerous situations to be in."

This is a logical fallacy. It can be dangerous to be at the hands of an hostile officer, but then an equal comparison would be to say that being a police officer I'm the presence of an armed violent criminal is dangerous.

But like you said, being an officer is not the most dangerous profession. Just like being in the presence of a police officer is not that dangerous.

Re:Agents raid home of fired Florida data scientist who buil... by tptacek on Monday December 07, 2020 @10:45PM (#25341518)
No, your statement is not equivalent to mine. George Floyd wasn't an "armed violent criminal". Neither was Eric Garner. Neither was Breonna Taylor. Neither was Daniel Shaver.