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Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by devwastaken on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:11AM (#25331095)
Currently this is compounded by the outrageous cost of living in any city and the heavy discrimination towards the homeless. Further away but still canada Ontario is $1200 cad for a 2 bedroom and $900 for single, that's at it's cheapest point. However If you're paying for it by welfare be it disability or Ontarios version of unemployment - you'll be denied. Doesn't matter if you have the money upfront and guaranteed, landlords don't want people who are homeless. Government housing is a 2-5 year waiting list. There's people right now on disability whom can have rent covered in its entirety, apartment complex landlords refuse. Yet some wonder how homelessness continues.
Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by CryptoPunk on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:10AM (#25331768)
>>the heavy discrimination towards the homeless

There was heavier discrimination towards the homeless in the past, with vagrancy laws for instance. The situation has gotten much worse as society has become more tolerant of homelessness/drug-use while providing far more services to those in that lifestyle.

Housing costs are indeed a problem however. The largest cities in Canada, as in the US, have seen rental rates increase as a share of average income. One study looking at the US blames this on rising restrictions on land-use since the 1960s, which has prevented housing supply from expanding to the meet the growth in housing demand:

https://web.archive.org/web/20201117212350/https://eml.berke...

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by Chris2048 on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:31AM (#25331953)
> Doesn't matter if you have the money upfront and guaranteed

What kind of guarantee is provided?

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by thrower123 on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:11AM (#25331398)
Quite frankly it is not worth the pain and expense of leasing housing to people who are on section 8 or similar welfare programs, if you are an independent landlord. Margins are not great to begin with, and a tenant that trashes the place or refuses to pay, quickly wipes out any profits. It's not a very good risk to take in the current market.
Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by badconvincer on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:23AM (#25332348)
If I remember correctly the government pays you to house the tenants. But yes, they trash the premises and speaking to someone that does this, the only way the margins work is if you do all the fixes yourself.
Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by OJFord on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:29AM (#25331501)
Why is this so downvoted? I'm unfamiliar (and not Canadian) but it seems informative, apolitical, and not rebuked in replies (so far anyway).
Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by pjc50 on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:04AM (#25331716)
The sibling comment lists all the problems, but I stopped at "forced labour"; a crime against humanity for which people were convicted at Nuremberg.
Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by Chris2048 on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:37AM (#25331987)
Basically, skimmed it and judged it on the basis of its word-cloud. How are we to escape tribal discussion-rails if nuance isn't allowed for?
Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by OJFord on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:20AM (#25331856)
If you hadn't stopped though you would have read "are not amenable to a liberal democracy".

I'm not about to downvote you for saying "crime against humanity" without reading whether or not you're advocating for one.

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by j_koreth on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:28AM (#25331926)
Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by CryptoPunk on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:06AM (#25331734)
I wasn't endorsing that policy.
Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by DFHippie on Monday December 07, 2020 @07:53AM (#25331651)
Why it does not sound apolitical to some:

* not exactly amenable to liberal democracy

* the pro-leniency movement

* has gone too far,

* all across liberal cities

* it's become a free-for-all

* absolutely devastating all parties involved

* the ordinary citizens who become victims

* rampant property crime

* the vulnerable who are predated upon by drug dealers

* who themselves commit vast amounts of crime

* feed their habits

* the taxpayer

* hard-earned resources

* thrown

* a money pit

* worse than neutral effects

This reads as a list of right-wing scare phrases used in any political campaign to motivate conservative voting. This doesn't read as apolitical to people who actually live in the places these phrases are applied to and it seems to be characterizing the people in these places, "liberal cities", as either fools or sub-human villains. Also, if you are one of the people demonized you don't recognize yourself in the description.

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by CryptoPunk on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:00AM (#25331681)
>>not exactly amenable to liberal democracy

I'm a big fan of liberal democracy, so this was an argument against involuntary commitment and forced labor, not an argument against liberal democracy.

The 'liberal democracy' reference is not using 'liberal' in the same context as the 'liberal cities' I referred to later.

>>the vulnerable who are predated upon by drug dealers

I wouldn't characterize that as a talking point associated with the right at all. The left is known for displacing blame for the misbehavior of drug addicts onto external forces, and this particular point does the same. Though it does sound critical of drug dealers, which is a right-ish argument.

Anyway, it's impossible to not sound political, when the problem is political. And it's impossible to not be critical of the left, when it is mostly the left that is to blame. Left-wing run cities are much worse off than right-wing ones with respect to homelessness, violent crime, drug-abuse, etc, by any metric you look at, and they got that way, from a starting state of much greater social order and more functional civic life, under decades of left-wing policies that gradually became more extreme.

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by DFHippie on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:54AM (#25332090)
> And it's impossible to not be critical of the left, when it is mostly the left that is to blame.

QED

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by jahaja on Monday December 07, 2020 @01:50PM (#25335581)
> Left-wing run cities are much worse off than right-wing ones with respect to homelessness, violent crime, drug-abuse, etc, by any metric you look at

Unless of course you look at the generally much more left wing Western-Europe. But that doesn't fit your narrative.

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by CryptoPunk on Monday December 07, 2020 @09:55PM (#25341120)
Vancouver's drug policy is more left-wing than even Portugal's.
Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by jahaja on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @02:32AM (#25342831)
You're missing the point. The entire societies are more left-wing.
Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by CryptoPunk on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @01:50PM (#25349688)
Why compare the US to Europe, and not leftist cities in the US to right-wing ones in the US?

That removes a huge number of potential confounding factors that could explain differences in outcome, letting the effects of differences in policy be better revealed.

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by OJFord on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:23AM (#25331888)
I don't know about Canada for sure, but otherwise, in fairly general, outside America 'liberal' isn't a dirty word, whatever your political leaning.
Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by DFHippie on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:53AM (#25332081)
The point isn't that "liberal" is a dirty word. It's that when you throw all those things together it sounds not like a dispassionate description of reality but propaganda meant to motivate action against domestic political opponents -- not to help people in the city and heal society but to demonize them. The "law and order" platform has been around a long time and has always sounded like this.
Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by Chris2048 on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:10PM (#25334141)
It should be also mentioned that HN leans left, so when similar left-wing scare phrases, such as comparing Trump/GOP to Nazis comes up, or similar "the opposition are fools" topics such as anti-mask/vax, global-warming etc; It's seen as correct and acceptable.

It's the same kind of thing as right-wingers acting hostile to any negativity towards police/military, even if criticism is valid. Criticise lenient policies in cities with vagrancy problems, and it's touching a nerve.

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by treeman79 on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:23AM (#25331179)
Had an in law that abused and assaulted many people in Ontario area. Including kidnapping and elderly person.

Entire extended family was begging police To arrest him. They absolutely would not do anything. I personally spent thousands on efforts to assist him.

Some people are just scum.

Oh and he always had some sweet girlfriend that he abused like crazy. Each one would take a couple of years to wake up that he was just using them.

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by hutzlibu on Monday December 07, 2020 @06:45AM (#25331262)
"Some people are just scum."

Sadly yes. There are usually thousands of reason, why they became scum in the first place and it is important to ask those questions and find ways of improvement - but those are not helpful for the present situation at hand, when others have to deal with actual fear.

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by treeman79 on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:02PM (#25334038)
He had a mother that gave him everything he wanted, and made excuses for him at every stage.

His sister was raised by a strict dad.

She has her own problems from it, but can function in society.

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by hutzlibu on Monday December 07, 2020 @12:15PM (#25334202)
"He had a mother that gave him everything he wanted, and made excuses for him at every stage."

Yeah well, that sounds like the reason. Pretty much Eric Cartman stereotype (from south park).

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by bregma on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:08AM (#25331755)
Stalin had a much better idea: ship the mental defectives off to gulags in Siberia.

It's important to consider the criteria used when we select individuals for internment.

One should also well consider the quantity of dog-whistles one embeds in a neutral-appearing comment. Using 'liberal' as an epithet, using the term 'ordinary citizens' to distinguish from those who need to be deprived of rights, bringing the idea of those who pay taxes as being especially worthy of government protection... these are all talk radio jingo.

A governing institution that interns individuals based on being different, or not morially aligned, of not thinking the correct thoughts has been tried often in the past and indeed there are many regimes around the world who still do so today. If society feels the need to institutionalize people for their thoughts it should at least formalize the crime in law and open the process to justice instead of relying on the fiat of those who hold the reigns of power.

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by Chris2048 on Monday December 07, 2020 @08:30AM (#25331944)
Alternatively, maybe a neutral-appearing comment is indeed neutral, and doesn't contain "dog-whistles" just because you disagree with it. By saying it contains such things you are assigning a sinister motive to the comment without requiring evidence, because it's a "dog-whistle", so we have to trust you that 'liberal' is being used as an epithet, or that using 'ordinary citizens' to distinguish the homeless is something sinister.

> governing institution that interns individuals based on being different, or not morially aligned, of not thinking the correct thoughts

You are talking about what? apartheid? communist regimes?

Homeless people aren't being treated differently for "not thinking the correct thoughts", or "not being morally aligned". They are treated differently from ordinary people, but if any ordinary person did the same they would be treated that way too. Being treated differently based on behaviour is not necessarily wrong.

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by bregma on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @07:51AM (#25344461)
> Homeless people aren't being treated differently for "not thinking the correct thoughts", or "not being morally aligned".

Homeless people who hear voices or are delusional are treated differently precisely because they are not thinking the correct thoughts.

Homeless people who indulge in self-mediation with alcohol or other drugs are treated differently precisely because those behaviours are not considered morally aligned.

> They are treated differently from ordinary people, but if any ordinary person did the same they would be treated that way too.

Plenty of people with homes are addicts. Plenty of people with homes suffer from depression or other conditions. I don't read a lot about how they should be rounded up by the authorities and reformed or institutionalized.

> Being treated differently based on behaviour is not necessarily wrong.

In the 1930s Soviet Union under Josef Stalin, political opposition was considered a mental illness just like schizophrenia and hysteria. You were considered crazy of you did not support the regime. Thousands of these crazies were rounded up, often in the middle of the night, and institutionalized in an attempt to cure them. The fresh air and honest labour of camps in Siberia were considered just the thing to help.

Sure, it's not necessarily wrong to treat someone differently based on behaviour. We consider it reasonable to isolate an individual who demonstrably poses a danger to others. The line is poorly drawn when it comes to differentiating between danger and inconvenience. Is seeing someone in a park smelling like urine and talking to someone you can't see enough of a threat to be isolated and force-fed mind-altering drugs? Does making unproven accusations demonstrate enough possibility of danger that we should "lock her up"?

Where does the line get drawn, and who has the privilege of drawing it?

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by Chris2048 on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @08:31AM (#25344750)
"not thinking the correct thoughts" would usually mean not subscribing to conventional opinion, not literally a euphemism for mental illness. And ones "morality" is usually considered to be a persons sober opinion, not things they do while on drugs.

Twisting the terms to fit the homeless means it applies to historical examples less - the persecution of certain demographics for their beliefs was not based on drug-induced anti-social behaviour.

> Plenty of people with homes are addicts

what kind of addict? What are they addicted to that they manage to keep a home?

If they are to hold on to that resource they maybe their situation isn't comparable?

> Plenty of people with homes suffer from depression or other conditions

What "other conditions"? depression isn't at all comparable to antisocial behaviour, but in fact if your depression leads to mania, self-harm, or self-neglect you may well be institutionalised.

> political opposition was considered a mental illness

And this was a determination made by doctors or medical professionals comparable to todays medical professionals?

How many of the politically opposed refused to take care of themselves as a result of their opposition? Is self-neglect difficult to distinguish from political motivation?

> differentiating between danger and inconvenience

The "inconvenience" of political opposition isn't at all the same thing.

laws and regulations exist guaranteeing political freedom, vagrancy shouldn't be crime itself, but anti-social behaviour shouldn't be excused on the basis of vagrancy.

> Is seeing someone in a park smelling like urine and talking to someone you can't see enough of a threat to be isolated and force-fed mind-altering drugs?

No, but where was that suggested? And by "force-fed mind-altering drugs" do you mean in all cases, or after a medical professional evaluates the person and promotes that as the best course of action (in which case its no longer based on the initial scenario you describe).

> Does making unproven accusations demonstrate enough possibility of danger that we should "lock her up"?

What are you responding to? What "unproven accusations"? I feel like you are making broad counterpoints to points never made.

Re:WW1 trench fever identified in former homeless man in Canada by CryptoPunk on Tuesday December 08, 2020 @10:23PM (#25354971)
Isn't 'talk radio jingo' its own dog whistle?