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Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by ekianjo on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:06AM (#25302997)
> but after it takes place everyone agrees things are much much better with less cars and no one wants to go back.

Except that most people cannot live in Paris because it's too expensive and need to commute every day. And using the RER which is dirty, smells like piss and full of graffitis, overcrowded at peak hours and often on strike is so unreliable that it is hardly an enticing option.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by loloquwowndueo on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:13AM (#25303084)
You are complaining about public transportation in the Île-de-France region. Think about that for a second. Few regions have such an extensive network of public transport options.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by wazoox on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:07AM (#25303875)
For instance in Vienna (Austria) you can park your car cheaply a few miles away from the centre in large car parks and go easily and quickly to the inner city by tram. There isn't anything remotely similar in Paris. There are underground parking spaces but far from the necessary scale. Plus they are extremely expensive (4€/hour is common).

Public transports are extensive, but they're overcrowded and perpetually strained to the limit of breakage. This week, a 400 tons concrete beam fell on RER C tracks. I suppose it will be weeks before it runs normally again. This sort of problems happens constantly.

Paris resident are only about 30% to own a car (a constantly dwindling number). Most cars in Paris come from the suburbs, therefore making motorists miserable isn't a problem for the mayor as most motorists vote elsewhere. This has the very unfortunate effect that nobody is really interested in solving the problem at its root.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by hcurtiss on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:38AM (#25303443)
I think he’s saying it still sucks.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by angry_octet on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:48AM (#25303595)
It sucks, but it is still amazing compared to non-EU.

At the moment, it costs a lot more inconvenience+money to use SNCF/RER than driving for many people.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by Ygg2 on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:03AM (#25303809)
That just makes it tolerable.

If someone stabs you in the kidney, and someone stabs you in kidney and chest.

You don't thank the former.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by pjmlp on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:12AM (#25303940)
You should get to know EU cities outside tourism capitals, it sucks just as well.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by angry_octet on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:35PM (#25307503)
No, I believe you that it sucks. But probably not as hard as, e.g. Florida.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by pjmlp on Friday December 04, 2020 @04:17PM (#25308137)
I bet they would be quite similar actually.

Plenty of areas you can only move either with own car or calling taxi.

The next bus stop is a couple of kilometres down the road and only crosses a couple of times per day.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by ekianjo on Saturday December 05, 2020 @07:32PM (#25319804)
> You are complaining about public transportation in the Île-de-France region. Think about that for a second. Few regions have such an extensive network of public transport options.

Yes, and it still sucks. Now imagine how much it sucks in other regions.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by Ygg2 on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:00AM (#25303772)
Yeah. How dare they demand short commute in human conditions.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by 0xB31B1B on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:12AM (#25303079)
The majority of the people who are prohibited from living in Paris due to cost but commute in for work use transit, they’d do not drive. Redistributing road space from cars to bike and transit space is a benefit to them. Additionally an eBike costs an order of magnitude less than a car and is functionally the same range/value as a commute tool.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by LandR on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:16AM (#25303128)
> eBike costs an order of magnitude less than a car and is functionally the same range/value as a commute tool.

Except on rainy days in car I arrive at work warm and dry. On eBike I arrive wet, cold and miserable.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by egeozcan on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:18AM (#25303159)
...and eBikes tend to get stolen, way more often than cars are.

I jumped on the eBike ship very early but I simply can't leave it anywhere.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by 0wis on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:26AM (#25303285)
Its because you were alone. Paris was well known to be unsafe even for a mechanical bike. With the CoViD measures, many Parisians got equipped with high end electric and non-electric bikes and the number of them exploded. Now that there are other pricy bikes everywhere, the risk that your bike will be targeted by a robber has highly reduced. Moreover, cops and random pedestrian are also more aware. Ultra qualitative data, would be better to find more quantitative to build the case but without more info, it is how I feel it.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by Scoundreller on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:58AM (#25303745)
I felt the same in Toronto (just have a shit bike), but the bike boom this summer led to somebody stealing my out-of-true rear wheel with extremely worn freewheel, and peeling the tape off my cracked seat revealing that, yes, it is cracked, and taking it anyway.

When people are out for a $5-$10 return for crack at 4AM, nothing is safe.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by throwaway0a5e on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:28AM (#25303304)
The government will solve that by making you pay to register your e-bike and fining and checking the papers anyone caught riding an unregistered e-bike.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by corty on Friday December 04, 2020 @02:55PM (#25306931)
Germany had voluntary bike registration to prevent thefts, I still have an old bike with the sticker. Didn't work because the police just flat-out tells you that they will not investigate bike theft if you report a bike as stolen. You just get a copy of the report for the insurance, but they systematically refuse to do anything.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by egeozcan on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:20AM (#25304044)
Well this sounds cool but I think the stolen bikes would be reduced to space parts very easily, which I agree is a hurdle for the thieves but still I personally wouldn't risk it.

On the other hand, if anybody has any info if this will be a thing in Germany, please let me know! It's surely better than nothing.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by parisian22 on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:43AM (#25303517)
The registration cost 5 to 10€ which i think it's reasonable https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/actualites/A14062
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by treeman79 on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:38AM (#25303441)
It’s why Japan has low rates of bicycle theft.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by the_french on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:59AM (#25303748)
The vast majority of cars in the streets of paris are not from suburban commuters but from people in the 15th and 16th (read: wealthy) neighborhoods preferring to drive than to mingle with the rest.

Besides, removing cars from the road means that busses will be more reliable (less traffic jams) so you can avoid the trains in more situations.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by Scoundreller on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:16AM (#25303141)
> And using the RER which is dirty, smells like piss and full of graffitis, overcrowded at peak hours and often on strike is so unreliable that it is hardly an enticing option.

I was surprised that the RER doesn’t have bathrooms on-board. In Ontario Canada, we have similar double-decker commuter trains and they have them. They’re about airline-style in terms of size (barring 1 “accessible” one per train), but they do the job.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by bilbo0s on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:13AM (#25303086)
The complaints you make are largely cultural. Metro trains in Asia, for instance, suffer fewer of those problems. The reason I believe authorities in Europe are settling on trains is because there are only a few problems inherent to trains as a technology. Far fewer than the problems inherent to cars as a technology. The problems that do exist are also far more tractable long term.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by carlmr on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:24AM (#25303252)
In Germany we have similar reliability issues I think as in France. They stem from two issues. First, that workers strikes are acceptable, and second that the infrastructure is often old and in disrepair.

The first reason is obviously cultural, but forbidding workers from striking would have some knock-on effects that the rest of society may not appreciate. The second reason, at least in Germany, has a lot to do with the semi-privatization of our train system which doesn't have inventives to invest in it's infrastructure and due it's cozy market position enabling rent-seeking.

The first problem, at least in the cities, could be solved with grade 4 automated metro according to the example of Copenhagen. The trains even drive much better than human drivers there, with no abrupt stops.

This would create unemployment, but it wouldn't infringe on people's rights.

The second problem we would have to solve by replacing the politicians that enable this. A much more difficult undertaking.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by bluGill on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:42AM (#25303501)
You should have an automated system anyway. Automated systems allow much more frequent trains which makes them more useful.
Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by egeozcan on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:25AM (#25304126)
You don't even need a strike. In this small town where I live, too many people call-in sick one day and all trains are cancelled.

Also bomb defusing. F* you World-War 2, even for all the wrong reasons!

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by angry_octet on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:55AM (#25303699)
Another way to think about it might be "how do we give workers bargaining power, without them withdrawing their labour?"

How can we use capital to create meaningful work, rather than the status quo oscillation left<-->right?

Using capital just automate for the sake of excluding workers is (IMO) silly. Improving safety and reliability, fine. But capital is also needed to start new labour intensive jobs, and anti-labour capitalism has a blind spot for this, and it leads to more political unrest.

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by egeozcan on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:26AM (#25304140)
> Another way to think about it might be "how do we give workers bargaining power, without them withdrawing their labour?"

I mean, that's the bazillion-euro question, right?

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by angry_octet on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:57PM (#25307851)
Incredibly difficult.

I would love to apply stochastic principles to it, using random choice to break deadlocks and force choice.

See also, models of collaboration between companies: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3679737

Re:Paris to ‘get rid of 70k parking spaces’ by iab on Friday December 04, 2020 @10:23AM (#25303229)
> dirty, smells like piss and full of graffitis

I’m sorry, when did we start talking about BART