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Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by jedberg on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:51PM (#25294685)
Only 4.25% of the world's population lives in the US. It's mathematically impossible for all the best people to already live here.
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by unishark on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:07PM (#25294944)
Companies don't just hire the best people, otherwise they would not be advertising for new graduates and intermediate levels of experience. They hire the cheapest people they can get for the skills they need.
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by staunch on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:25PM (#25295256)
FAANG resources are the highest in the country. They could afford to hire 100% US citizens if they chose to. Even if that made it much harder for non-FAANG companies. No one could afford to compete with them.

The motivation for FAANG committing so much fraud using the H1B isn't really debatable. They do it to to steal money for their shareholders. The same motivation for all their tax cheating. The difference being that the H1B fraud is clearly illegal, even if it has remain unprosecuted by virtue of political bribery, etc.

Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by edmundsauto on Thursday December 03, 2020 @11:18PM (#25298875)
There aren't enough skilled American workers for FAANG's appetite. These companies are desperate for talent. The problem is just there isn't that much out there.
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by staunch on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:22AM (#25304077)
You're a victim of their big tech propaganda machine. The math proves this theory wrong in seconds.

And even if it was true (it's not), FAANG have enough money to train every person they want to hire from scratch. It would just cost more. Which is the entire point: they're greedy in the extreme.

Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by edmundsauto on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:00PM (#25306983)
Could you provide the math, then, rather than haughtily dismissing me?
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by staunch on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:57PM (#25307850)
You made the dubious claim that there aren't enough U.S. programmers. Why don't you feel the burden to back that up, rather than just blindly asserting it as fact? And you should ask yourself where you learned this "fact" from. I suspect that it came from the PR departments of the fraudsters themselves.

It's very easy to disprove in any specific instance that there aren't U.S. programmers available to fill a role. Take a look at the H1B openings and see if you can't find some people in your LinkedIn connections that could fill those roles and don't yet work for FAANG. I certainly could for almost any role because they're almost all very generic tech jobs.

It also seems likely to be false just based on the number of U.S. programmers and the number of programmers employed by FAANG. They are very big employers but not nearly big enough to employ even a majority of U.S. programmers.

I don't think anyone in FAANG leadership believes this claim to be true at all. They all know why they're committing fraud, which is to compete against the others that are doing it too. The same reason restaurants and farms hire people that are in the country illegally.

You probably fell for the same propaganda about Americans not wanting to work in restaurants or in farms. When in reality, they don't want to compete with people being exploited.

Some companies exploit "unskilled" illegal immigration.

Some companies exploit "skilled" fraudulent immigration.

In both cases, it's the unethical theft of wealth from the population.

Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by edmundsauto on Friday December 04, 2020 @06:52PM (#25309935)
You know what, you're absolutely correct! I should do a bunch of research in order to convince you of my point. I suspect this will be a really productive conversation, and will get right on that.
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by ajsnigrutin on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:17PM (#25295980)
But do they need that many "best" people? Or are just "good enough" people from "shithole countries" cheaper than locals? I mean... why pay an american a good wage, when you can get someone from some poor country, give them a barely livable wage (especially with rent prices in silicon valley), bring them there with a h1b visa and treat them badly, because if they quit, they must leave the country.
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by mynameishere on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:10PM (#25294994)
What exactly does Facebook need the best people for? To implement the remaining 5 percent of MySpace?

As to the H1-B thing, I suspect most of the people here haven't interviewed at the crummier software jobs (like at a commercial bank) but it's amazing how an entire department can be nothing but foreigners of no apparent excellence, and yet they can't "find" any citizens to hire even after interviewing them. There's heavy fraud top-to-bottom and it's going to get much worse.

Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by shiftpgdn on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:58PM (#25294808)
What % of that is developers? What is the global demand for software developers?
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by DiogenesKynikos on Thursday December 03, 2020 @06:21PM (#25296818)
US companies definitely make up way more than 4.25% of the global demand for skilled software engineers. The global software industry is highly concentrated in the US, which is why there's a large influx of skilled software engineers into the US.

Without that influx, this concentration would be impossible. If the US heavily restricts immigration by software engineers, the industry will ultimately relocate elsewhere. Europe would love to get all its software engineers back.

Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by jedberg on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:07PM (#25294949)
Does it matter? There is no realistic way that all the best developers, or even all the good developers, already live in the USA.
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by throw_m239339 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:19PM (#25295132)
> Does it matter? There is no realistic way that all the best developers, or even all the good developers, already live in the USA.

Yes, it does, you used a figure to suit your argument, now people are rightfully asking for a more relevant figure to see if your argument still stands. So what % of developers live in USA? The rest is just purely your opinion.

Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by dboreham on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:50PM (#25295654)
It doesn't. This is like asking what percentage of international level pop singers live in the US. Definitely not 100%. Even considering baseball players the proportion isn't 100%.
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by throw_m239339 on Friday December 04, 2020 @01:07PM (#25305625)
If it doesn't then the grand grand parent's figure doesn't matter either, you can't have it both ways with this kind of argument. You can't use a number and when asked about an accurate representation of the problem, opt out claiming numbers don't matter.
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by jedberg on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:46PM (#25311837)
I didn't say numbers don't matter. I just said your numbers don't matter, because they aren't relevant. It's on you to prove that the numbers you seek are relevant.
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by jedberg on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:23PM (#25295211)
I would contend that the unknowable numbers the person is asking for are not actually relevant to the argument at all.
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by throw_m239339 on Friday December 04, 2020 @01:09PM (#25305661)
> I would contend that the unknowable numbers the person is asking for are not actually relevant to the argument at all.

More like you don't want to know, or it would turn your argument into an absurdity.

Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by jedberg on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:58PM (#25307854)
Please explain to me how knowing those values would change the argument. At what thresholds would it make a difference one way or the other?
Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by throw_m239339 on Friday December 04, 2020 @08:32PM (#25310740)
Please explain how the number you cited is relevant at first place, with the same conditions:

> At what thresholds would it make a difference one way or the other?

Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by jedberg on Friday December 04, 2020 @11:44PM (#25311822)
You can look at a person and tell that they are bald. You can look at a person and tell that they are not bald. But you can't say exactly when they go from not bald to bald.

Since we can't know how many people are employed as developers, we must guess. But we can reasonably guess that if only 4.25% of the world's population lives in the US, it can't possibly have all the best developers, or even the majority of them.

Re:Justice Dept files suit against Facebook for discriminati... by shiftpgdn on Thursday December 03, 2020 @08:40PM (#25297980)
It is a knowable number you're just omitting it to suit your argument.