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Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by black_puppydog on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:23PM (#25292464)
I think this is actually the better link to be discussing, rather than the twitter threads shared before.

The most relevant parts (in terms of back story) should be this:

> A week before you go out on vacation, you see a meeting pop up at 4:30pm PST on your calendar (this popped up at around 2pm). No one would tell you what the meeting was about in advance. Then in that meeting your manager’s manager tells you “it has been decided” that you need to retract this paper by next week, Nov. 27, the week when almost everyone would be out (and a date which has nothing to do with the conference process). You are not worth having any conversations about this, since you are not someone whose humanity (let alone expertise recognized by journalists, governments, scientists, civic organizations such as the electronic frontiers foundation etc) is acknowledged or valued in this company.

> Then, you ask for more information. What specific feedback exists? Who is it coming from? Why now? Why not before? Can you go back and forth with anyone? Can you understand what exactly is problematic and what can be changed?

> And you are told after a while, that your manager can read you a privileged and confidential document and you’re not supposed to even know who contributed to this document, who wrote this feedback, what process was followed or anything. You write a detailed document discussing whatever pieces of feedback you can find, asking for questions and clarifications, and it is completely ignored. And you’re met with, once again, an order to retract the paper with no engagement whatsoever.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by jerome-jh on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:30PM (#25295325)
> behavior that is inconsistent with the expectations of a Google manager.

Maybe my remark is down to earth but, she literally told her group to stop working. I do not know of any company where this is an acceptable behavior for a manager. Besides the disagreements, it sounds to me that was the action that caused Google to pull the trigger.

Also from Dean's email it is pretty clear there are a number of new products down the pipe based on AI. At one point top management decided the company should stop denigrating its own products.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by frongpik on Thursday December 03, 2020 @08:02PM (#25297700)
She was fired for damaging Google's reputation. In her email, she carelessly demanded names of those who reported her, that can be interpreted as extortion, and Jeff didn't miss the opportunity to call her out. Her offer to resign was another mistake: she would be fired anyways, but for a different reason and with more paperwork. Now if she takes this to a court, she would have to tell the judge what she needed the names for.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by meragrin on Saturday December 05, 2020 @01:11AM (#25312246)
She wasn't fired. She made it clear she could not work there her demands were not met and would resign. Google accepted her resignation.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by dragonwriter on Saturday December 05, 2020 @01:46AM (#25312399)
> She wasn't fired.

Yes she was. Even the letter communicating to her the termination of employment made it fairly explicit that she was being terminated on terms different than what Google interpreted her resignation to be, due to the internal mail.

It's clear that for external PR purposes Google wants to maintain the story that it was merely accepting her resignation, but while clearly worded with the intent that an incomplete reading would support the narrative, the letter to her fairly directly (and unusually for a case where they viewed themselves as accepting a resignation) mad explicit that employment was being terminated, immediately, based on separate grounds from the supposed resignation.

On the other hand, I guess making it explicit that she was being fired for public internal complaints about a culture of discrimination is one way (like, the worst way possible, but one way) of making the case that what happened to Damore wasn't discrimination against white men, but just what they do to any internal criticism of Google culture.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by fhrow4484 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:42PM (#25295541)
> she literally told her group to stop working.

Where did you read that?

in the email shown,she told a listserv called "Women and Allies" to stop writing docs that are an attempt to better the situation in terms of diversity, equity, inclusion as writing those docs are like pissing in the wind in her opinion

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by PeterisP on Friday December 04, 2020 @03:27AM (#25300243)
Quoting Jeff Dean's email about this (as published in https://www.platformer.news/p/the-withering-email-that-got-a...) " I also feel badly that hundreds of you received an email just this week from Timnit telling you to stop work on critical DEI programs. Please don’t. I understand the frustration about the pace of progress, but we have important work ahead and we need to keep at it." implies that at least Google does interpret her email as her telling people to stop work on certain issues.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by caddemon on Thursday December 03, 2020 @08:22PM (#25297849)
Well there is precedence for firing people who criticize Google's diversity policies on mailing lists...
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by Bukhmanizer on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:11PM (#25293149)
It’s more relevant, but probably doesn’t tell the whole story considering she very heavily hints that she gave them a list of demands or she would resign, and Google just accepted her resignation.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by mkolodny on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:05PM (#25295830)
"Timnit responded with an email requiring that a number of conditions be met in order for her to continue working at Google, including revealing the identities of every person who Megan and I had spoken to and consulted as part of the review of the paper and the exact feedback. Timnit wrote that if we didn’t meet these demands, she would leave Google and work on an end date."

We don't know the full list of demands, but Jeff Dean shared one demand that people may find unreasonable. Other demands may have been much more reasonable, but those weren't shared.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by sidibe on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:33PM (#25296199)
I don't think more demands can make a set of demands less unreasonable unless it's an either-or type list of demands.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by Andraia on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:29PM (#25296152)
> We don't know the full list of demands

Timnit is far from silent. She could share them if she wanted to. She appears to think that that would hurt rather than help her.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by rbanffy on Thursday December 03, 2020 @07:30PM (#25297483)
Considering she says she made a list of issues she'd like fixed and that she'd discuss it when she came back from PTO without ever mentioning resignation and that was answered with a "we accept your resignation" passed on to her reports, I believe she has legal representation.

The financial implications of her resigning vs her being fired are probably significant.

In Google's place I'd probably negotiate an agreement with a non-disparagement clause. She'd be compensated and everyone would save face.

And we'd never be discussing this. She could take other research roles and advance the state of AI in peace.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by curiousllama on Thursday December 03, 2020 @01:39PM (#25292690)
I really want to read that paper. Can't wait til it's published. Presuming it'll be at FAccT*...
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by AnimalMuppet on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:04PM (#25293941)
And, when reading it, I want to remember the backstory - that (if we can believe her story) Google went to unreasonable lengths to try to block the paper.

Maybe someone could post it here when it's published?

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by yaoxx151 on Friday December 04, 2020 @12:40PM (#25305308)
It might not be FAccT. The deadline was a month ago but it seems she submitted the paper recently.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by black_puppydog on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:44PM (#25293642)
Underrated post. Would be interesting indeed.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by curiousllama on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:58PM (#25293842)
Pure speculation, but it's gotta be criticizing Google, right? What else could they _possibly_ have been so concerned about that they were willing to fire the researcher over it?
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by black_puppydog on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:09PM (#25294027)
That would be the nail in the coffin of "we do AI ethics at Google."

Gonna have to wait and see I guess.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by ConceptJunkie on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:40PM (#25295509)
Google? Ethics?
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by southstreet on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:16PM (#25293218)
"feedback" here seems to refer to feedback on the scientific paper that is being retracted, not personal performance feedback or anything like that. When I red this first, wasn't immediately clear what this was about.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by black_puppydog on Thursday December 03, 2020 @02:45PM (#25293669)
Good point, that also took a bit of disentangling for me.

As such, I find it really quite baffling that someone would be unwilling to share that scientific feedback with her, or who raised it.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by throwaway74453 on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:44AM (#25302719)
She has a history of attacking people through social media. If I were reviewing her paper, I would certainly not want to be known to her, especially if I were critical of it. The possibility of retaliation from her is very real and she often uses her considerable twitter following to do exactly that. I believe she thinks she's doing the right thing, but from a disinterested party's perspective she seems like a bully.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by sillysaurusx on Sunday December 06, 2020 @03:09AM (#25321969)
Hello! I just wanted to point out that she addressed your point: https://twitter.com/AkhandBharat365/status/13349035240066088...

I remembered your comment here, so I came back to post this, for what it's worth.

I'm still not entirely sure what to think.

Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by dash2 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:28PM (#25295296)
Some refereeing processes are anonymous, and there can be good reasons for that, like preventing academic logrolling. It's standard in academia.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by black_puppydog on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:43PM (#25295551)
I'm well aware of that. But this was not a (submission) peer review situation. From everything I've seen (not a complete picture of course) this was a process entirely separate from the peer review process of the conference she was submitting to. That still makes it a situation where her paper was apparently reviewed (and possibly by peers) but it certainly doesn't have the same semantics in which anonymity is warranted/guaranteed.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by ConceptJunkie on Thursday December 03, 2020 @04:42PM (#25295524)
But the feedback itself wasn't shared with her. That part doesn't make sense unless management didn't want her to see it, and why would that be the case?
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by thebladerunner on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:29PM (#25296149)
Because (a) by the rules of engagement, management is not required to share original feedback, and (b) the original feedback could be used to identify the sources. In this case, there might have been a real risk to the sources given the individual in question is known to mobilize internal and external forces like Twitter mobs to personally attack people and bully them into submission.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by dash2 on Friday December 04, 2020 @12:24AM (#25299304)
I think this argument would stand on its own without the very specific claims about the person in question, which are a little strong unless you have personal information.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by Ar-Curunir on Thursday December 03, 2020 @05:51PM (#25296444)
This is internal legal review, not academic peer review.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by dash2 on Thursday December 03, 2020 @06:21PM (#25296815)
I'm not sure we know exactly what kind of review it is. I think it also depends what she signed up for, explicitly or implicitly. What were the expectations around freedom to publish?
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by throwaway74453 on Friday December 04, 2020 @09:46AM (#25302736)
It is a review that every paper submitted to a conference or a journal from Google has to go through. In fact I believe one has to do that prior to even submitting the paper to external peer review. That at least was the interpretation every researcher I knew at Google was operating under.
Re:AI researcher Timnit Gebru resigns from Google by lawnchair_larry on Thursday December 03, 2020 @03:48PM (#25294635)
Because she goes on unhinged rants and smears people by calling them racists, probably. Nobody wants to stick their hand in that hornets nest.