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Re:The Covid Science Wars by jjgreen on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:05PM (#25258955)
It is interesting to note that Thomas Lars Benfield's Danish mask study, whose empirical results are at odds with the "majoritarian view" mentioned in the article, has yet to be reported by the BBC.
Re:The Covid Science Wars by addicted on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @12:16AM (#25262572)
The study doesn’t even attempt to measure whether or not masks protect others, which, until recently, was the only claim health organizations were making. So the study doesn’t even attempt to study the primary effect of mask wearing.

Beyond that, as the link tm Taleb’s blog posted by a commenter below shows, if anything, the study shows a positive effect for mask wearers.

Re:The Covid Science Wars by pjmorris on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:24PM (#25259163)
Limitations summary, quoted directly from Benfield study[0]:

> Limitation: Inconclusive results, missing data, variable adherence, patient-reported findings on home tests, no blinding, and no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others.

I would not be quick to promulgate or depend on the study.

[0] https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817

Re:The Covid Science Wars by goalieca on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:51PM (#25259504)
It is easy to dismiss any scientific study based on their limitations but to date, no other study has attempted to place any controls. We have mechanistic models based on incomplete transmission knowledge (is it airborne?) and we have observational studies where we look at what happened and attempt to adjust for certain variables.

It seems obvious by now that universal mask policies have not been very effective at controlling the transmission rate when compared to other variables: known and unknown. Maybe it is a little bit effective but that has not been conclusively shown yet. Where I live, the Ro value dropped below 1 before masks were required and shot well above 1 months later. Compliance is high, probably as high as any public health policy

Re:The Covid Science Wars by kemitchell on Monday November 30, 2020 @10:39PM (#25262037)
Does it matter if other studies have done better? If no study to date has met standards, do we lower the standards until a published study rises to the occasion? I hope not. After all, the point of standards includes defense against confounding---your "other variables", known and unknown---especially in combo with motivated reasoning. During a pandemic, reason doesn't lack for motivation!

As for studies that do meet standards, they are hard, not easy, to dismiss. That work tends to get meta-analyzed and synthesized, not brushed off, at least by the reader community at large. I wish more of it got replicated, too, but that's a different thread.

Meanwhile, we still have to make decisions. But not entirely without scientific guidance. We can reason from studies of how the disease spreads and how potential countermeasures work. We can argue by analogy to what science has revealed about apparently similar phenomenon, like flu. Those aren't scientific arguments so much as other kinds of arguments hopefully informed by science. Pending better science as such, that's what we've got.

Re:The Covid Science Wars by pjmorris on Monday November 30, 2020 @11:08PM (#25262205)
> "no assessment of whether masks could decrease disease transmission from mask wearers to others." [0]

It seems reasonable to me to think that, whatever the scientific contribution of the study, the fact that it doesn't test the primary claimed benefit of masks suggests that it is not the last word on the matter. When I say 'I would not be quick to promulgate or depend on the study', I am not dismissing the study, but recognizing its limitations, as do the authors.

Re:The Covid Science Wars by m_mueller on Monday November 30, 2020 @10:46PM (#25262073)
It's not so obvious to me. Take for example Switzerland. Second wave hit it very hard. Since a couple of weeks it was however able to bring R0 down below 1 while keeping schools, stores and restaurants open. This is far from a controlled study, but the conclusion has to be that a combination of distancing, contact reduction and mask wearing is working. Note that Switzerland is densely populated and currently has relatively cold and dark weather.
Re:The Covid Science Wars by IronRanger on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @12:18AM (#25262583)
The primary 'value' of mask mandating is to discourage shopping, going outside, and use of public transit - since masks are generally unpleasant and asocial.

Once these factors are removed its unlikely that mask wearing provides any value beyond security theatre.

Re:The Covid Science Wars by DanBC on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:17AM (#25263983)
> variable adherence

But that's the point.

We know that distancing works. We know that hygiene works. We don't yet know whether masks work or not, but we do struggle to find benefit when research is done (and this includes for source control -- there's plenty of research on that).

When scientists claim "masks work, we know they work, and we know they work well" they risk feeding a narrative that we can go about our normal day to day life so long as we wear a mask. That's untrue. We still need to distance, we still need scrupulous hygiene routines.

They also feed into a narrative that people not wearing masks are causing harm, which leaves those people open to harassment and attack.

Re:The Covid Science Wars by ahelwer on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:21PM (#25259130)
Taleb has been going pretty hard all week on how that study doesn't demonstrate what certain people really, really want it to demonstrate: https://fooledbyrandomnessdotcom.wordpress.com/2020/11/25/hy...

Check out his Twitter feed for more.

Re:The Covid Science Wars by jjgreen on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:32PM (#25259275)
I await his peer-reviewed response with interest.
Re:The Covid Science Wars by ahelwer on Monday November 30, 2020 @06:25PM (#25260373)
He isn't responding to the claims in the actual paper (which are quite weak - they explicitly say the paper doesn't show masks are ineffective) but rather the crowd of charlatans who have hoisted this paper upon their shoulders to push anti-mask bullshit.
Re:The Covid Science Wars by timr on Monday November 30, 2020 @11:44PM (#25262393)
"they explicitly say the paper doesn't show masks are ineffective"

No paper can ever show that. You cannot prove a negative (except in extremely bounded cases, of which the mask proposition is not one).

This is why statistical studies attempt to provide evidence supporting an alternative hypothesis. If you cannot accept the alternative hypothesis, you must accept the null. Studies do not attempt to disprove the alternative hypothesis, and accept it otherwise.

This study attempted to find statistically convincing evidence that masks provided personal protection, and failed to do so. Does it mean that they have proven that masks don't work? Of course not. There are many reasons why they might have failed to detect a real effect. But it does imply that whatever effect is being hypothesized is smaller than the power of the study they used to detect it.

Re:The Covid Science Wars by chatzi on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @07:21AM (#25264544)
TLDR of Talib's take: The study says: "We are not sure whether wearing a mask OUTSIDE YOUR HOUSE (but not at home) will give you more protection than distancing from catching Covid INSIDE YOUR HOUSE." Statistically, junk!
Re:The Covid Science Wars by nojito on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:09PM (#25259015)
Re:The Covid Science Wars by jjgreen on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:15PM (#25259076)
Benfield's study has been peer-reviewed and published in Annals of Internal Medicine.
Re:The Covid Science Wars by liversage on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:39PM (#25259360)
And the conclusion was that based on the data they were not able to determine if face masks protects you from infection or not.

For some reason this has led to media concluding that face masks do not protect you but that's not the same.

Another important effect of wearing a face mask is that it may protect other people from being infected by you but that effect was not part of the study.

Re:The Covid Science Wars by chillacy on Wednesday December 02, 2020 @12:18AM (#25273488)
ESP (extra sensory perception for predicting the future) has been peer reviewed.

Stripped of all the political connotations it's actually kind of an interesting debate for scientists to have.

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/06/science/06esp.html

Re:The Covid Science Wars by acqq on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:22PM (#25259149)
As Anthony Fauci already pointed, one study can be both peer reviewed and be wrong.
Re:The Covid Science Wars by acqq on Monday November 30, 2020 @08:49PM (#25261359)
I refer to July 31, 2020:

https://news.yahoo.com/fauci-shoots-down-flawed-hydroxychlor...

Rep. Blaine Luetkemeyer (R-Mo.): "it was peer reviewed"

Fauci: "It doesn't matter. You can peer review something that's a bad study."