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Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by jayd16 on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:47PM (#25256568)
Can someone explain why BTC going from 13k to 20k in a month isn't the yearly pump and dump?
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by nostrademons on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:02PM (#25256764)
It's probably more reflective of inflation and the dollar losing value, which is the natural consequence of dropping interest rates to zero and pumping $6T more into the economy. TSLA has gone from $191 to $576 since June, GOOG from $1394->$1761, AMZN $2478->$3143, ZM $262->$466. Where I'm at restaurant meals have gone from about $13/plate to $20/plate, and houses have gone from ~$1.6M -> $2.1M.

BTC's rise isn't all that out of line with any of those. I think you're seeing investors rush out of dollars and into anything that'll have hard value in the digital economy going forward. Inflation doesn't hit all markets evenly, so you may not see it in your paycheck yet (if you still have a paycheck) and areas without a lot of people seeing money come in won't have prices rise as much. But I think you should read this as a currency crisis for the dollar, not a bubble for Bitcoin.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by arcticbull on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:04PM (#25256798)
Inflation has a specific definition with reference to the cost of a set basket of goods and rent. An increase in the price of assets and assets alone as a result of an increase in money supply is not inflation.
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by nostrademons on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:33PM (#25257188)
That's the definition of the CPI. The definition of inflation that an individual cares about is "the rise in prices of the goods that I want to buy". Asset purchases, housing, and food are my biggest expenses. YMMV.

I gave some examples of consumer goods inflating in my post - restaurant meals are up about 40%, housing up about 18%, groceries have also been up about 20% since the pandemic started. Also have friends that own or work in non-tech businesses (one owns a packaging factory, another sells hot tubs) that say that supply chains are in shambles and all of their producer prices are going up, significantly. You'll see that in consumer prices eventually, but it takes time to work its way through the economy.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by arcticbull on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:49PM (#25258079)
Asset purchases are not inflation related. If Apple goes up because their business is doing well, that’s not inflation, that’s a good investment. You need to tease apart the performance of the underlying to even get a sense of how the money supply is impacting prices. I’d love to see a study. However simply seeing stonks go up doesn’t mean inflation.

If I had to speculate the current market froth has more to do with individuals access to leveraged investments via smartphone apps like Robinhood. The pandemic has turned them into a generation of gamblers. When you buy options from a market maker they hedge by purchasing the underlying. This has a positive feedback cycle effect causing them to purchase more and more to hedge. Look up a gamma squeeze.

https://realmoney.thestreet.com/investing/stocks/is-the-gamm...

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by pashamur on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @11:42AM (#25266810)
Generally house prices are a ~somewhat decent proxy for asset inflation which is driven by monetary policy; I believe the low rates have definitely driven inflation in housing prices (and the gamma squeeze argument above does not apply to the housing market).

Part of the reason we've had an insane housing market valuation growth over the last ~40 years is that cost of capital has gone down from ~15% to 2.5% over that time frame. If rates were near the historical average right now, you would see very different asset prices.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by arcticbull on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @03:51PM (#25269725)
Housing prices on an inflation adjusted dollars per square foot basis are the exact same now, on average, as they were in the 1970s across the US. [1]

A few things have changed. One is in choice few major metros, like SF, city councils abjectly refuse to allow new construction taller than existing construction to the benefit of landowners. This artificial supply constraint is pretty much solely responsible for the massive increase in pricing in these metros.

The other thing that’s changed is minimum setback rules, minimum sizing rules, and various other council ordinances - in addition to what Americans consider a suitable home for their living situation. As such new homes are on average twice as big now as they were in the 1970s.

Make no mistake though the average price per square foot for a home in the United States has tracked inflation almost precisely for the last 50 years.

This is purely supply, demand and artificial constraints - not monetary policy. Compare to Tokyo where housing downtown is a few hundred thousand dollars. I suspect if interest rates were lower you’d see smaller houses, not cheaper ones - that’s what happened there!

[1] https://fee.org/articles/new-homes-today-have-twice-the-squa...

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by sjwalter on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:26PM (#25257107)
You are talking specifically about consumer price inflation, which is as you state a well-specified concept based on a (hilariously disconnected from reality) weighted basket of goods and how the basket's price changes over time.

Inflation as a concept itself is much broader than this.

The comment you're replying to is referring to asset price inflation, which has been happening hardcore.

You seem to be saying since the Fed's stupid basket hasn't shot up in price (based on what they're saying), that inflation hasn't happened?

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by arcticbull on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:32PM (#25257171)
I’m saying CPI inflation (which is what people mean when they say inflation) has not gone up. I suggest that to prevent confusion among the readers that folks using a nonstandard (or at least non-colloquial) definition of inflation should make that clear.
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by dustingetz on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:58PM (#25256716)
Patio11's take: (2019)

"Credit bubble? Yes, there can no longer be serious doubt about this: people bought Bitcoin with money that didn’t exist, pushing up the price of Bitcoin. A lot of people currently think they are richer than they are."

https://www.kalzumeus.com/2019/10/28/tether-and-bitfinex/

I'd be interested in reading a counter-take, most bitcoiners I know just look away.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by safog on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:08PM (#25256858)
Yes, free money inflates risky assets, but it's also just supply and demand. Mining rewards got halved, so miners can't sell as many BTC as used to do after mining a block, so the supply of BTC just went down significantly.

The more macro stuff like worries about inflation due to the Fed printing $$$, easy money (0% interest rates), and yes, some FOMO speculation is increasing demand.

As far as I'm concerned this is working as intended. This is not the first boom / bust and this won't be the last.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by anythingdude321 on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:05PM (#25258259)
Tether has accounting problems and remains a systemic risk. But this is mitigated by several factors. First, they are semi-audited and most educated guesses suggest they are collateralized one-to-one with $ at 70% or more. Second, tethers have become less systemically important over time, as other, better audited (or collateralized) stables have taken market share — this trend will likely continue. Third, tether brr doesn't compare to Fed brr and never will be able to, so ultimately, this won't matter in the long run.
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by Siira on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @10:54AM (#25266209)
Sources I’ve seen say Tether has been completely un-audited for years and only a fool will think they’ll keep collateral dollars for their Ponzi scheme.
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by safog on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @12:53PM (#25267691)
Any sources for this? I've been trying to read up to understand how / when Binance decides to print USDT and what they do with it once it's on their exchange.

e.g., https://twitter.com/whale_alert/status/1333809716301094912

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by lambdadmitry on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:09PM (#25256881)
Tony Arcieri's take is pretty good, too, and extremely succinct https://twitter.com/bascule/status/1329580017446047748
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by cheaprentalyeti on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:10PM (#25257583)
I'm late for an appointment, but...

I'm reminded of the example of the closing years of the Kuomintang in China, where they were suffering from massive hyperinflation. Small businesses and co-ops would bet temporary loans from the central government in its banknotes but immediately change it to silver if possible to do business with, so they wouldn't have to deal with the debasement of the real currency over the course of the year.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by X6S1x6Okd1st on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:09PM (#25256878)
More on ramps and institutional investors buying in seems to be a big part of it.
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by lambdadmitry on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:19PM (#25257007)
This "institutional investors" meme is a bit like God: no one can prove it, but it gives its believers all the hope. There is no evidence of that happening on massive scale and no reason for them to do so.
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by leppr on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:33PM (#25257180)
https://www.coindesk.com/investment-giant-alliancebernstein-...

American institutions are definitely going in. It's a solid ponzi, why would they shun that one when they went in all the others?

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by jakupovic on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:27PM (#25257112)
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by miguelmota on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:59PM (#25256732)
The PayPal integration of cryptocurrencies had a huge positive impact. Also more large institutions are diversifying their portfolio into Bitcoin.
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by calebm on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:03PM (#25256797)
Bitcoin is a hedge on the US dollar, so people probably suspect the economy will go down since Biden won.
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by optimalsolver on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:10PM (#25257579)
Is that why Dow hit 30,000? Because investors are bearish on a Biden economy?
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by pashamur on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @11:47AM (#25266857)
Holding stocks is also a hedge on the USD, not unlike bitcoin.

Perhaps the market is expecting more money printing.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by seibelj on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:49PM (#25256590)
I posted this in the other thread from today that briefly hit the front page:

Bitcoin is a social phenomena - no government or company backs it. The only reason it has value is if people value it. Bitcoin promoters have convinced people it's a store of value, like gold except digital. As the Cult of Bitcoin spreads, it doesn't take that many new enthusiasts to push the price up, as unlike literally all other commodities on earth, the supply of bitcoin is truly constrained and there cannot be anymore made in response to demand above the normal rate of inflation.

This time, big money, institutions, and the very rich are coming in addition to the widespread purchase by retail. The price is going to rise a lot.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by arcticbull on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:51PM (#25256618)
Bitcoin is a Bitfinex and Tether phenomenon. Since the Tether article was posted a few weeks ago another $2B fake dollars have been generated and used to buy Bitcoin. This absolutely and completely dwarfs the pennies Square and PayPal threw into the wishing well.
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by seibelj on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:55PM (#25256683)
Tether is a cornerstone of the crypto industry. You can post some random blog posts here but Tether is actually used by trading firms, and can be minted and redeemed through their portal here https://app.tether.to/app/login

The Tether FUD is so dumb, but it's the last straw being grasped by perma-bears.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by headmelted on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:01PM (#25256754)
Nonsense. Tether has never been redeemed, and even if it could be redeemed, there is no possible way that they could cover the balance of issued tethers.

It’s the mother of all Ponzi schemes, clearly, and is definitely going to implode in the next big pullback.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by gruez on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:08PM (#25257556)
>Tether has never been redeemed

Why is this relevant when you can withdraw tethers for USD at any participating exchange? Or are you saying that None of the exchanges that support tether (eg. bitfinex) has never fulfilled a withdraw?

>It’s the mother of all Ponzi schemes, clearly, and is definitely going to implode in the next big pullback.

Sounds like a great way to make a lot of money. Tether is currently trading 1:1 with USD (yes, even at exchanges that offer real USD). It should be easy to short-sell a bunch of tether, and buy it back when in collapses. And unlike short-selling stocks, your downside should be relatively low as tethers can't realistically go above their current price.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by arcticbull on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:39PM (#25257976)
Why is it relevant? Really? It’s relevant because as soon as it’s clear the emperor has no clothes you wont be able to redeem it at any exchanges because it’s garbage.

> Sounds like a great way to make a lot of money. Tether is currently trading 1:1 with USD (yes, even at exchanges that offer real USD). It should be easy to short-sell a bunch of tether, and buy it back when in collapses. And unlike short-selling stocks, your downside should be relatively low as tethers can't realistically go above their current price.

All crypto exchanges are rigged casinos. The only way to win is not to play.

Tether absolutely swings up and down depending on how many people are fleeing into or out of cryptos at any given moment. We’ve seen like +5-7% and -20%. That’s enough to blow away any leveraged position.

Finally, of course, you neglect counterparty risk. I have to put up collateral on this short which any of these exchanges could simply run for the hills with, as they do, regularly. Seriously, who lets you short Tether except for Bitfinex - and what will they pay you out in, more Tether? They don’t have a bank account. That’s why they invented Tether.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by gruez on Monday November 30, 2020 @04:08PM (#25259007)
> Why is it relevant? Really? It’s relevant because as soon as it’s clear the emperor has no clothes you wont be able to redeem it at any exchanges because it’s garbage.

Because if you're worried that they don't have enough real us dollars to back the USDTs that they've printed, being able to directly redeem USDT for USD isn't really going to make a difference.

>All crypto exchanges are rigged casinos. The only way to win is not to play.

That seems like an overly broad statement to make, especially there are a few exchanges that try to be as by-the-books as possible.

>Tether absolutely swings up and down depending on how many people are fleeing into or out of cryptos at any given moment. We’ve seen like +5-7% and -20%. That’s enough to blow away any leveraged position.

Or just don't leverage to the max? Short-selling $1000 worth of USDT with $1000 of USD in reserve and 3x leverage should allow you to withstand most shocks without being forced to liquidate.

>Seriously, who lets you short Tether except for Bitfinex

Kraken, for one.

>and what will they pay you out in, more Tether? They don’t have a bank account. That’s why they invented Tether.

Again, this goes back to my first comment. Are you claiming that bitfinex isn't processing fiat withdraws (eg. wire/ACH transfer to a real bank)?

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by jcfrei on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:23PM (#25257742)
These accusations against Tether are very outdated. Read Matt Levine's take from 2019 on an ongoing lawsuit: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-04-26/things...

The quintessential part is this: The New York attorney general’s filing refutes the extreme version of those doubts — Tether mostly had the dollars — but it is nonetheless a wild ride that alleges that Tether’s backing might not be as good as it claims.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by arcticbull on Monday November 30, 2020 @02:44PM (#25258033)
That article was written $16 billion imaginary dollars ago. Things move fast in the BVI.
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by headmelted on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:55AM (#25264163)
This. I’d like to see evidence that Tether have an additional $16B USD in guaranteed cash to cover their commitments.
Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by seibelj on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:05PM (#25256820)
You have no idea what you are talking about and are just spreading more FUD.

https://www.theblockcrypto.com/post/48857/former-head-of-cir...

I worked with Dan, I worked at Circle, we redeemed / minted billions and billions with Tether.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by arcticbull on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:15PM (#25256955)
Oh I didn’t realize Dan was an auditor. Which of the big ones does he work at? KPMG? Deloitte? PwC?

This is a classic strategy employed by scammers to legitimize a scam. You pick a prominent individual and you make the fraud work for them, so they can tell other people it’s legit.

Their last auditor quit, half way through the audit. No audit, no legitimacy, period.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by headmelted on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @05:59AM (#25264180)
Respectfully this is a difficult claim to believe.

If your claim is that you redeemed billions of dollars in tethers for fiat USD then that’s newsworthy.

Even if that were the case though, it does nothing to prove that Tether is able to cover its commitments. Especially not with the additional $16B USD on the books.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by arcticbull on Monday November 30, 2020 @12:56PM (#25256700)
lol go on redeem some. If you actually read their terms of service it specifically says tethers do not grant you any claim on their reserves. I’ve no doubt they’re used by exchanges that don’t want to comply with the law and follow AML/KYC. That’s the point.

Don’t carry water for these scammers they literally don’t have a bank account and admitted in court [1] much of their reserves are IOUs and crypto. Audit or gtfo (to tether inc not you).

[1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.theblockcrypto.com/amp/dail...

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by mrlala on Monday November 30, 2020 @01:23PM (#25257058)
It's all bullshit speculation. And rich people / institutions doing whatever they can to "make money" no matter what.

Am I saying crypto has no value at all and never will? No- but it's stupid that the "drive" for people to create new cryptos and hold current crypto is to uh.. make money off of it vs a currency like USD? That's stupid as hell.

Crypto that is not pegged to something like USD is made for gambling and to make the rich richer. If I were to "gamble" $1000 in crypto the last few years sure, maybe I make 50-100k. Whoopdydoo. Yeah that's great but it's not like mega life altering. Rich people can be like "Oh I'm going to throw $1 million into this.. oh look, I just made $50-100 million, now I can take this and buy a bunch of new businesses or buy my new mega mansion somewhere!". It's just sickening, honestly.

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by anythingdude321 on Monday November 30, 2020 @03:25PM (#25258508)
that...doesn't make any sense. return 50x is returning 50x. many people would be thrilled to have 50-100k. It means a better house, maybe better schools, better food, better life. and that's just in America!

Envy is the thief of joy

Re:Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017... by Siira on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @11:01AM (#25266310)
The more money people throw at crypto the more risk they are taking. It’s actually the most equitable investment I know, open to almost anyone, and same return rates regardless of amount invested.