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Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by the_only_law on Saturday November 28, 2020 @01:53PM (#25239582)
Not sure why people are so worried about developers getting trapped by locked down systems. I have plenty of other PC’s, running Linux, *BSD, Windows much less locked down. I’m very aware Apple is controlling of their platforms. No I’m not thrilled about certain aspects of the M1 platforms, but most platforms I’ve used feel locked down in some shape or form. If, in the case Apple tries some of the outlandish theories out there, I’ll simply cease to use it and probably trash Apple then as it will be useless to me, but I’m not locked into anything.
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by floatingatoll on Saturday November 28, 2020 @02:44PM (#25239923)
All x86_64 Windows processor manufacturers are supporting the Microsoft firmware that offers secure attestation about whether your system was booted securely or not, so if by lockdown you mean “I can make undetectable changes to my system”, that’s coming to an end as rapidly as they can bring it to market (before Apple locks them out of it). You’ll still have the option to alter whatever you please, but software and websites will have the option to refuse service to your modified system.
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by userbinator on Saturday November 28, 2020 @07:31PM (#25241865)
but software and websites will have the option to refuse service to your modified system.

Oh hell no! This is the scenario that Stallman warned us about, over two decades ago:

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.en.html

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by floatingatoll on Sunday November 29, 2020 @12:35PM (#25246546)
Citing a twenty plus year old manifesto with offers no guidance on how to reinterpret the idealistic view of “It is my right to modify” versus the modern day problem of “I must protect myself and others from malicious modifications”.

Stallman hasn’t been of much use for this, and his followers fervently cite his decades-old works each time I raise this point — but meanwhile, this is available today to any website accessed by any Apple Silicon MacBook, and it’s already deployed and in use in the (Linux) servers powering Azure Cloud, and it’ll probably reach the consumer Windows market in the next year.

Now what? After we get past “RMS told us this would happen”, after we blow off steam about “My ideals are being violated”, is there anything left to discuss and consider here?

I thought there was — for example: “Is it possible to reconcile the conflicting needs of safety and modifiability?” — but the prevalence of replies like the above over the past few weeks makes me think that I’m mistaken, and should simply let this go unnoticed until it’s too late and irrelevant what anyone believes.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by rstuart4133 on Sunday November 29, 2020 @05:53PM (#25248844)
> the modern day problem of “I must protect myself and others from malicious modifications”. Stallman hasn’t been of much use for this

Clearly we differ, because it looks to me like Stallman put forward the only plausible solution to someone taking control of my system without my knowledge or permission: open source. Granted, that wasn't what he was trying to do at the time, he was as you say perusing the "It is my right to modify" line. But that's how it's turned out.

You are apparently perfectly happy to have Apple / Google / Microsoft or whoever install whatever backdoors and spyware they please on your system. It's not like you have a choice, or will even know, so it's probably best you've made your peace with it; just as people have made their peace with Facebook, Google Chrome not deleting their own cookies, or Microsoft refusing to copy files because some virus checker had a copyright violation signature fire (that's actually happened to me).

Maybe I'd even be OK with trusting those companies, but I definitely draw the line with governments granting themselves the legal right to rummage through that same cookie jar, which is exactly what the Australian government did with it's Assistance and Access bill. [0] I'm sure all governments do the same thing of course, including the Chinese government. A good indicator of how seriously the governments themselves take this threat is how Huawei is being treated by Western Governments. I have no doubt the Russian and Chinese view western gear with the same level of suspicion. To me that is the only sane position to take.

Just to be clear, I'm not saying TPM's and the DRM they enable aren't useful, but the problem is the lack of visibility into what these black boxes you are carrying around with you and putting in your living room. If you know what those boxes are doing, locking them down so hard they can’t be compromised by someone who has physical access to them is a nice addition, although the threat scenario (someone who has physical access) is very limited so perhaps not a major addition. But what you seem to be applauding is locking them down so hard even you, who has physical access, can’t see what they are doing, and then you go on to pillar a person who proselytized making all software transparent, so everyone could see if there systems system are running software they approve of, and not malware or worse.

[0] Quick summary: the Assistance and Access bill gives the ozzie government the right to force any company to write spyware that won't be detected by their OS's (that's the "Assistance" but), and then install it via their auto patch systems onto to device they nominate (that's the "Access" bit).

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by floatingatoll on Sunday November 29, 2020 @08:01PM (#25249701)
My personal opinion on this technology isn’t included here, and I’ve made a point of withholding it each time, specifically to deny the opportunity to invoke the messenger’s feelings as relevant to the issue at hand. What I feel about this doesn’t matter, because this is already live in two marketplaces and headed rapidly to a third. I could be pro, I could be con, I could be both/mixed or uncertain/apathetic (hint: it’s not a purist view on either side of the fence). Discussing my viewpoint isn’t even possible, yet half of the words in your reply are dedicated to your speculation about it.

Focus your energy on the real issues at hand:

How are we going to adapt to the reality of secure attestation? How are we going to confront it with technology? How should we legislate to protect against abuse of it? How can we make use of it appropriately?

My goal is to raise awareness, and based on the other half of your reply, I’ve succeeded with one person. That’s progress, I suppose.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by pfranz on Sunday November 29, 2020 @03:03AM (#25243708)
At least in the US, my understanding is a 1975 law, the Magnuson–Moss Warranty Act, protects warranties on modified products as long as the modification didn't cause the issue. It comes up all the time with cars since there's an active mod community.

That being said, I usually backup and "factory restore" my computers before servicing. Mostly because I don't want to hand out my password or hand over my personal data, but I expect them to test that its fixed and that's easier in a generic OS. I also think it'd be odd to hand over a Macbook Pro (or even a Microsoft Surface) with Linux installed and expect their random, low-level tech to asses things.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by the_only_law on Saturday November 28, 2020 @03:05PM (#25240078)
I’m aware that Windows is locked down and even with Linux or *BSD parts of the platform you’re running on are mildly concerning at least. However, as you said I can still alter what I wish, whereas a lot of theories I’ve heard about Apple here recently involve turning the Mac platform into some sort of crippled sandbox in the spirit of mobile devices, or worse like some consoles that are so locked down the hackers haven’t beat it yet.

I do believe Microsoft would love to head down a path like that, but are too burned with the massive frankenstein of legacy tech that is Windows. I also tend to share a bleak view of the future of computing as many of the people voicing concerns, I just don’t believe that a niche set of consumers can overpower that of the majority who could care less if you ranted to them about control or privacy or whatever.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by amelius on Saturday November 28, 2020 @02:16PM (#25239726)
> If, in the case Apple tries some of the outlandish theories out there, I’ll simply cease to use it and probably trash Apple then as it will be useless to me, but I’m not locked into anything.

And what if it is too late? E.g. Apple owning the entire space you want to develop apps for? Or, if this seems an impossible theory to you, how about competitors copying Apple's model?

Please understand that as a consumer you have power, but if you don't use it you can end up like the proverbial boiled frog.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by RONROC on Saturday November 28, 2020 @02:41PM (#25239907)
I can understand this level of pearl-clutching when we’re talking about social media, but I just don’t see Apple as the five-alarm fire it’s made out to be.

Practically speaking being “locked” into a system would only be a possibility in a world where highly distributed, massively supported OS’s (Windows, Linux) didn’t exist.

Anti-apple people have a hard time fathoming the degree to which many other “power users” are okay with privacy/security trade offs if it results in a more robust/stable environment that just works.

Problem is, it’s being framed as some sort of Faustian bargain when it’s really not that big of a deal.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by skulk on Saturday November 28, 2020 @07:08PM (#25241733)
> that just works

Until it doesn't. I can open my Thinkpad (W530) and replace parts in it that die. Can you say the same for your Macbook? Are you okay with a future where everyone follows Apple's example because it generates more profits, where right-to-repair is a thing of the past? I know that sounds alarmist, but it's definitely the trajectory I see.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by wulfklaue on Sunday November 29, 2020 @09:24PM (#25250152)
The EU is introducing legal laws that will combat planned obsolescence. And that protect the right to repair. The EU is also fed up with manufactures thinking they can get away with everything. Those laws will also have a effect across the world because its easier to design on product that applies to the strictest laws, then two products.

So yea, Apple their gravy train is going to run into a massive road block. In the US states are also starting to rectify laws that push the right to repair.

Its one of the reasons why Apple "suddenly" allows repair shops to buy parts. As a way to change the narrative. Of course that buying parts has "issues" Apple style. A grifter is going to grift.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by pixel_fcker on Saturday November 28, 2020 @08:44PM (#25242243)
People that buy MacBooks don’t care, or at least they don’t care enough to buy something else.

As to your second point, MacBooks have been available for how long now? And yet thinkpads still exist.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by skulk on Saturday November 28, 2020 @11:22PM (#25242904)
> And yet thinkpads still exist

The X1 Carbon doesn't have upgradeable RAM. On some level, I'm convinced that Lenovo wants to follow in Apple's footsteps and is testing the waters with the X1 Carbon series.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by noisy_boy on Sunday November 29, 2020 @12:40AM (#25243181)
X1 extreme does; both RAM and SSD can be upgraded
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by ogre_codes on Saturday November 28, 2020 @08:33PM (#25242194)
When I have parts in my MacBook Air die, I guess I'll find out. It's 10 years old now and doesn't show any sign of breakage. I'm pretty sure it's paid itself off several times over.

Since the new Air lacks even a fan, it seems even less likely to need service.

Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by skulk on Saturday November 28, 2020 @11:30PM (#25242922)
This reads like: "I guess I'll find out whether my privacy is being respected when I actually have something to hide."
Re:Apple Silicon M1: A Developer's Perspective by jmnicolas on Saturday November 28, 2020 @03:25PM (#25240220)
You have the same power than someone that votes: 1 vote which is not much.