Example from NYC: my iPhone used to constantly give me nag messages to turn on “driving mode” when in my car. I don’t have a car; it assumed I was driving while I was actually on the subway. Apparently, Californians think if you are moving a certain speed, you must be driving.

Luckily, that has been fixed.

I remember that, it was really annoying.

A prime example of arrogant engineering - they were wrong both about what was going on, and for writing dickish software.

Don't write nagware. Not only are you not as smart as you think you are, software is still very, very stupid and the world is much bigger than you think, even when you think you are taking that in to account.

I really doubt that had anything to do with arrogance or thinking they were smart. They knew that everyone would just turn that annoying "feature" off, but presumably some lawyer thought it was a good idea to ensure people didn't blame car crashes on Apple, particularly in a court of law.

e.g.

https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-blamed-for-accident-sued-by-...

I used to get that in Sweden when riding a bicycle.

Not to mention that maps at that point (and still) doesn't understand cycling directions. It could often steal focus from google maps. Very annoying and I nearly forgot about it until you mentioned it here.

Yeah, this is a pain with Apple - instead of trying to understand the business and consumer culture of the particular country, Apple tries to impose US business model everywhere.

Some of the things I have observed in India:

- Apple tried to entice and sell iPhones through the carrier, where as Indians largely have a cultural apathy to buying expensive phones on loan / credit and locked to a network.

- Apple still doesn't allow you to update your phone on cellular data even if the indian user wants to - most of the cellular data plans in India offer anywhere from 1GB / day to 5GB / day on 4G. So even if we have the speed and bandwidth, Apple insists you can only update on Wifi. (Obviously nobody wants forced, silent updates through cellular data - but Apple should atleast allow update on cellular data if the user initiates it. It's irritating that you can watch large HD videos, but not update your phone.)

- Apple still doesn't seem to have any data centre in India, and sends an expensive international SMS to the US everytime iMessage or Facetime has to be activated. (And when anybody complains about this online every "helpful" suggestion blames the carrier for this rather than Apple - because apparently some carriers in the US don't charge for this "activation SMS". Obviously since US carriers are sending a local SMS, they can afford to absorb the cost of an iPhone they have sold and profited from. Why would indian carriers absorb the cost of an international SMS for Apple for no obvious profit!? If it was local, it would be free too in India as many indian carriers offer free SMS in their plan. See https://apple.stackexchange.com/questions/390275/how-to-avoi... for more details on this SMS activation.)

- My iMessage was blocked many times because the amount of messages I sent because Apple didn't recognize that social networking in India had moved from Orkut and FB to mobile messaging (that's why FB bought WhatsApp, and it is the number one messaging App in India even on iPhone.)

- Apple still insists on a credit / debit card for use on App store in India, despite India having better online payment solutions that protect our privacy better. Also, cards of India's payment processor (RuPay) is not accepted, and you have to invariably use a Mastercard or Visa card.

> Why would indian carriers absorb the cost of an international SMS

Because SMS pricing is a scam and in practice is a rounding error to handle all of those activation messages. Both countries should just exclude that number from billing.

This is similar to how European carriers suddenly started competing on free international calls/data once EU enforced better rules. We've been told for decades it's really expensive, but now? Nah.

> Because SMS pricing is a scam

Everything corporates do can be called a "scam". To me, it is a "scam" that a trillion dollar company like Apple avoids putting up activation servers in India because it is more profitable to not do so and just make the indian user pay an international SMS everytime.

It is also a "scam" to me that Apple insists that I can only install everything from the App Store, where as apps would actually be cheaper for all of us if Apple didn't take a cut from the developer. (And I can go on ... but we have to live with the reality of the world don't we - Apple isn't going to give up control over their App Store just as carriers will keep trying to monetise on SMS or RCS.)

Practically, an SMS message uses less data than a “missed call”. I don’t think anyone has ever paid for not picking up a ringing phone.

Both can be true.

> So even if we have the speed and bandwidth, Apple insists you can only update on Wifi.

I hit that with Android once too. Had unlimited mobile data, and was in a pub with broken wifi, so it wouldn't let me do the update at all.

Yes, even Android has this issue. It's definitely a legacy carried over from the US - data is still expensive there and carriers probably discourage phone makers from sending large data over their network.

I have a p30 Pro and have problems updating ota on mobile data.

You should ask your carrier why they are charging for SMS. There is no reason to do that in 2020.

Though you are right Apple needs to deal with the reality of their customers.

Wow - what a genious.

Plenty of places in the world charge for SMS. Ask all you want, doesn't mean things will change.

MY wife just applied for a mortgage in her home country, they won't approve it until they have a picture of her on file.. some places just do things differently hence the whole 'please test outside of the US' point of this post which appears to have gone over your head.

Many carrier plans do offer local SMS free. Why in the world would a carrier pay for Apple's INTERNATIONAL iMessage / Facetime activation SMS?

Because SMS is essentially free. Companies exist to make money, but international phone fees ought to be a relic of the past. That they are not is a problem that we would all be better off getting to the bottom of and solving.

> Because SMS is essentially free.

What a ridiculous argument trying to blame another corporate to hide Apple's folly. By that logic, the same argument applies to Apple too - Installing apps used to be free before Apple decided to charge developers for it, and make all apps costliers for all us.

True, but I would argue this is not a problem only Apple seems to have.

I agree working in a wider range of ambient temperatures would be nice, but they do have a support article stating the temperature should be over 10°C, so I wouldn't say they've not tested it.

https://support.apple.com/en-gb/HT201640

Note that the iOS devices work from above 0°C (https://support.apple.com/en-sg/HT201678) so maybe improvements will be brought to laptops too.

> I agree working in a wider range of ambient temperatures would be nice, but they do have a support article stating the temperature should be over 10°C, so I wouldn't say they've not tested it.

Yeah, the point is 10 C is sufficient ... for California. Not necessarily for the rest of the world. I'm sure they specify some temperature range, it's just not quite enough. Besides it was left outside for 10 minutes, not hours.

To add insult to the injury, all my older Apple laptops were able to survive bouts on the balcony, and if anything, the winters were colder 10 years ago.

Discharge rate of batteries falls with temperature. 10C is a very common lower limit for high performance lion cells. There's a complex set of tradeoffs vs fundamental physical limits here. It's not at all a case of "aw shucks we forgot places other than CA exist" which is something you're just projecting onto the situation.

I had to buy a new battery for my car because despite a battery shop and the dealer saying there was nothing wrong with the battery, short trips in the car below 10C would kill it in a week.

As someone else pointed out, the dew point is not something you want to explore with personal electronics.

I don't know where you live but I've spent enough winters right next to Cupertino, 20 minutes walking distance from 1 Infinite Loop to be precise, and it's not warm at all, in fact it's cold as hell without heating (not as cold as some places apparently, but still cold enough to freeze your balls off, or cause your laptop to shutdown). So no, it's chemistry at work, not "Cupertino is warm enough to not have this problem."

I don’t think you’re being entirely reasonable here. If you need a laptop that works at 3°C, don’t buy one that states it needs 10°C. If you just didn’t know, you’re presumably still in the laptop’s return window.

Fwiw, I’m in New York, and I really do think this is a reasonable operating temperature for a laptop.

I don't need a laptop that works at 3 Celsius. I need a laptop that won't completely shut down if temporarily exposed to 3 Celsius.

So you need a laptop whose operating range includes 3°C. How long it is exposed to 3°C doesn't matter because components can already take damage from the very moment they are cooled below the operating range.

Well, it didn’t break or anything, it just had to warm up, right? Was the battery discharged?

I am a little surprised it didn’t hibernate. That could potentially be a software issue.

> Yeah, the point is 10 C is sufficient ... for California.

It is currently below 10 C at Apple’s headquarters.

Computers are generally built for indoor use, regardless of where you’re using them in the world.

That the laptop shuts down when below minimum operating temperature is a Good Thing™. For example, the battery performance changes greatly (reduced capacity and discharge rate), and the battery may even take permanent damage when charged at low temperatures.

Also it is a very bad idea to bring a laptop indoors from the cold and immediately turning it on. Condensing water can cause short circuits (people who wear glasses can probably relate). Always let it warm up to room temperature first.

This is not a MIL-STD 810G rugged outdoor device. If you want that, buy a Thinkpad.

I am in Montreal, Everyday I got to school during winters I had to subject my laptop to -20c for 45min before coming back to a warm indoor. It's not like we have any alternatives. It's true for our phones as well.

OP's points still stands. I would add that if your product can't stand this constant hot-cold cycle, don't get in the Canadian market. If you are selling here, we can assume you have accepted the reality of climate and have factored it in your warranty costs.

And there are very cold places in the US too, so Apple isn't just ignoring the Canadian market, it's ignoring a good chunk of the US too.

Are you carrying your naked laptop around outdoors in below zero temperatures? Maybe a bag that nestles against your body would be a better idea.

You obviously never lived in cold climates. Everything outside my winters clothes is at outside temperature (inside is often not terribly hot either..). I am not about to carry my laptop in my coat, which are usually a somewhat tight fit.

“Yes, obviously,” he responded, sarcastically.

Anyone who has bought hot food on a cold day has an opportunity to learn about how some containers do nothing and others do quite a bit. Even thin paper versus heavy brown paper makes a pretty big difference in insulation.

Many bags designed for laptops have open cell foam for shock resistance, and thermally conductive foam is a specialty item. You practically can’t make a laptop sleeve without an R value. So it’ll depend a lot on whether your laptop was room temperature when it went in or is warmer.

If you’re looking for a Christmas idea for yourself, I don’t think you find a better laptop bag than Tom Bihn. They have a laptop sleeve that’s practically an insulated lunch bag: https://www.tombihn.com/products/brain-cell with an air gap at the bottom that prevents damage if you drop your bag. Which I have.

Their stuff is expensive, but they’re bombproof and not Apple-expensive. They’re waterproof, including the zippers, the shoulder straps are butter-smooth, and the factory workers are paid a living wage.

If a device requires some special enclosure to work in the climate it's intended to be used it should come with it. People would find their MacBook Air a lot less appealing if it came with a mandatory carrying case. This is not on the consumer to fix.

As others pointed out, that was likely intentional. Apple designed this safety mechanism into the laptop, so they would not have to deal with such warranty claims.

Also the temperature change is not a problem while the laptop is non-operating. The alternative therefore is to wait for 10-15 min before turning it on.

This is not entirely accurate. Electronic devices are fogging up just like my glasses everytime I come inside. This is known to trip the water sensitive stickers used to deny warranty, even if the problem is obviously unrelated. Those are triggered regardless of if the device is powered on or off. To me this is strong evidence that electronic devices are not tested properly for our climate.

That moisture indicators are used as a way to weasel out of warranty claims is indeed common. But that was not what I was referring to.

What I mean with having fewer warranty claims is that the Macbook doesn't break in the first place. Condensing water is not a problem while the device is powered off, and will evaporate once it reaches room temperature.

> This is not a MIL-STD 810G rugged outdoor device. If you want that, buy a Thinkpad.

Or a Panasonic Toughbook. I've always wanted one. Modular, work from -20 to +60, in the rain etc. Expensive as all hell though.

Around 2015, or so I was visiting Boston during some really cold winter (was -10 outside)

We were at the office, went out to wait for a bus, waited for 15 minutes, and since it was freezing we decided to go back inside and get uber/taxi.

I pulled my laptop out of the backpack, tried to turn it on - it was dead.

Lithium batteries don't like extreme temperatures. Is it possible to make a laptop that copes ok with extreme temperatures?

edit Apparently the Toughbook is able to cope with -16°C. Wonder how they do it.

https://business.panasonic.co.uk/mobile-solutions/more-about...

Some Toughbooks go to -25 C.

https://www.fieldenvironmental.com/assets/files/Literature/P...

Nope, the entire laptop was dead. Booted into some black screen of death, with glitches.

I never saw something like that before or after that.

Possibly condensing water caused some transient short circuit. If your laptop survived, you were lucky.

Kids these days.

Anybody remember when rental movies had warnings about letting them warm up before playing them if they were exposed to cold temperatures?

That is not similar at all. 3°C is not a normal use condition, silicon normal working temperature is around 50°C (sustained by its own heating in normal condition) and there is probably a notice where the minimal temperature is stated in celcius. The OC is about assumption on user culture. Assuming that a macbook won’t be used in extreme condition is just normal engineering scoping. You aren’t chilling on the balcony in underwear, are you? Well of course not because your body, even raised in a cold climate, needs to keep itself at 37°C. Your macbook too need to keep warm, and it cannot use its muscle when the CPU is not heating enough. But, hey, maybe you just got a good business plan ! Design a macbook parka to sell to your fellow countrymen.

I do wonder about that, could it be battery operation? I know when I'm out using my GoPro on the slopes the battery will die very quickly when it's a super cold day. I blogged a while back about a possible problem of using Macs at altitude when it comes to battery swelling: http://leejo.github.io/2019/07/27/altitude_sickness/

Anyway, on the original topic here's a talk on the [mis]use of CAPTCHAs which is definitely worth your time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gKRTg-RXsc # note the first 10s or so are cut off.

Seems like an issue with the technology itself more than Apple.

Snow mobiles and winter jackets are expected to stand cold weather. Electronics not so much.

3c isn't very cold. it's an ambient temperature any phone would have to be able to withstand for an indefinite period to be marketable even in many US states.

It's the batteries more than anything else, most phones will loose their battery capacity in cold weather.

Wil lose. One O.

Losing capacity is one thing, shutting down and refusing to start after 10 min outside is another. What use is a phone if i can't call 112 because it's cold?

Edit: Also remember that I've had Apple laptops before, and only this newer model deems it necessary to shut down.

> What use is a phone if i can't call 112 because it's cold?

You're right, we should just ditch them. What use are they?

Yes, literally. If my phone would not work at 10C, I would replace it immediately, then burn it.

The point of a mobile phone is to be usefull outdoors, and sometimes your life depends on it. There are no two ways about it in my view.

yes, one O.

That's a battery technology limitation, you wanted a lightweight high capacity and low memory effect battery? the cost is bad temperature range. Otherwise pull out an old phone with NiMH batteries for your 911 calls

Try to use an eInk device in cold weather, its response time becomes terrible down to almost unresponsive. Again that's a technology limitation.

How do other laptop manufacturers fare in this regard? For ThinkPads (T490) the environmental temperature is listed as "5°C to 43°C", and your 3°C would be too cold.

My X1 Carbon 3rd gen got quite some use in the last 5 years, some of it also in ~ 0 °C weather (for at least half an hour), worked fine.

That is naturally just one personal experience, so I do not want to assert that all X1s or even ThinkPads fare better in colder weather. Just that at least some do.

There may be a difference if you’re actively working in cold weather, where the CPU is generating heat that keep the internal battery temperatures up.

My hands have historically never been happy doing fine motor work at those temperatures.

Even though I’ve acclimated to doing outdoor work in colder and wetter conditions, I’m having trouble believing people are actually working on their laptop while most of us would be wearing gloves.

That sounds close enough that it would probably work just fine. I used my laptops on my terrace in winter, but as i never had any of them 'overcool' i never took note of the temperatire.

Agree, MacBook should be tested on the Moon, 7km under the sea level and in the core of the Earth itself.