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Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by roel_v on Thursday November 26, 2020 @10:01AM (#25220550)
I drive one, in the Netherlands, where the climate and road conditions are such that those are not a factor at all. The only reason I drive it is because it's so comfortable to sit higher up, and to have a better view of the road that way. It's comfortable to get in and out of (I'm 40 years old, work out several times a week, no mobility issues whatsoever - I still find it more comfortable). This is the second SUV I have, before that I had a tiny car and thought the same as you do, it was only once I started driving one that I started to see why people like them.

I don't think for transitioning to EV the form factor will be the problem. BMW will start delivering the first EV versions of my current car (X3) next year. For me, charging it where I live (city center) is the problem. Every time I see my neighbour roll his extension cord across the sidewalk I think 'no way I'm going to do that'.

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by DoingIsLearning on Thursday November 26, 2020 @10:41AM (#25220904)
I can definitely see why people like them and thanks for being transparent about it rather than try to justify it with secondary reasons.

My only suggestion is irrespective of the environmental aspect is, do check the performance of your next SUV with regards to "Pedestrian Safety" crash tests (Also standardized by Euro NCAP).

Specially when you mentioned city center, and The Netherlands. The difference between a regular sedan and an SUV could be the difference between a kid with fractured legs or the weight of forever taking someone's life.

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by Acinyx on Thursday November 26, 2020 @11:45AM (#25221472)
I kind of wonder if what we Europeans call SUVs is really what a lot of thew people in these threads think about.

For example, I am going to buy a new car in the next 2 years, so looking a bit, and two cars I might be choosing behind would be the:

Peugeot 3008/5008, seen as a SUV in the Netherlands: 67% Pedestrian Euro NCAP score: https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/peugeot/3008/5008/26581

Peugeot 208, smaller car, same brand, same year: 56% https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/peugeot/208/38543

Or the original posters BMW X3: 70% https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/x3-/-x4/33285

Otoh, the BMW 3 series: 87% https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/3-series/38531

Full electric BMW i3: 57% https://www.euroncap.com/en/results/bmw/i3/8863

So what I am trying to say is: yes, "SUV" in general are likely to be worse for pedestrians, but there is so much variability, that "picking a SUV" doesn't mean much about safety.

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by DoingIsLearning on Thursday November 26, 2020 @02:06PM (#25222731)
I understand the concern but it is not based on comparable data.

A few things to take into account:

- The 67℅ in the test in 2016 for the Peugeot 3008 is based on a Pedestrian Impact performance.

- The 56% of the test in 2019 for Peugeot 208 is based on a Pedestrian Impact Performance _and_ ADAS pedestrian detection +Automatic Emergency Braking (AEB) performance

An important point with Euro NCAP is that typically the tests are always getting harder year on year to account for the expected technological development. Such that the same car would progressively score less if it were to repeat the Euro NCAP test year on year.

I hope this helps your concern.

In 'standard height' cars the first impact is usually on lower limbs or torso and secondary trauma to the head will happen on the bonnet or windshield.

In SUV's, pedestrian and cyclists are much likely to suffer head trauma on first impact.

My point is, in the horrific scenario that this should happens the survival rate will always be higher for non-SUV vehicles (ideally with longer bonnets and pedestrian friendly deformable structures).

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by dzhiurgis on Thursday November 26, 2020 @03:31PM (#25223314)
Do you have any data about pedestrians killed by SUV’s vs other car shapes?
Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by DoingIsLearning on Thursday November 26, 2020 @04:20PM (#25223601)
"At speeds in excess of 40 miles per hour, 100% of the SUV incidents studied resulted in the death of a pedestrian, compared to 54% for crashes involving cars at this speed."[0]

"The GHSA reported that the number of pedestrian deaths involving SUVs increased by 50 percent from 2013 through 2017, while the number of pedestrian deaths caused by passenger cars increased by 30 percent over that same period. That reflects booming sales of SUVs and the fact that pedestrians are much less likely to survive the impact of an SUV."[1]

[0] https://brandonlegalgroup.com/iihs-study-suvs-present-a-high...

[1] https://eu.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2019/02/28/pedestri...

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by dzhiurgis on Thursday November 26, 2020 @11:10PM (#25225487)
Study size of n=79, amazing.
Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by DoingIsLearning on Friday November 27, 2020 @02:16AM (#25226237)
I assumed you asked in good faith so I will try to ignore the unnecessary sarcasm.

I hope a Cochrane meta-analysis meets your evidence based statistical standards.[0][1]

It's physics, a higher front-end means primary blunt force trauma to the chest and head (specially for children and cyclists), were by primary we mean the first and highest force trauma, and by chest and head we mean trauma to vital organs.

I am not judging if this type of vehicle is your preference but demanding scientific rigor without accepting the physics involved just feels like a cognitive dissonance. I am not arguing that higher front-end vehicles cause accidents, I am arguing that pedestrian are less likely to survive upon impact compared to other vehicles.

The only reason these vehicles are not banned from city centres is purely because they are a marketing and economical success not because of lack of evidence on their dangers.

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/20146143/

[1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33147075/

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by dzhiurgis on Friday November 27, 2020 @03:40AM (#25226648)
I have not yet seen scientific evidence, just some correlation which doesn't bother to account for increased driving, increased smartphone and headphone use, etc. Further there doesn't seem to be any indication of SUV sizes, nor inclusion of other large vehicles. Even article itself says it should be taken with grain of salt.

All that said there is little doubt that lower car would be safer for peds. But all I asked is some evidence and you provided some garbage.

I don't think we ought to ban trigger-vehicle-of-the-year just because you feel like it. First I totally think we should discourage driving in cities, no matter the car. Pedestrian only streets, public transport, bike lanes is 100% my vibe. If you really want smaller cars in cities - make smaller parking spots. Make it inconvenient to use them (which is already case in European cities).

So answer me - what is your fetish with SUVs in particular and why you dance around fact that there are ton of other more dangerous vehicles on the road?

p.s. again your second links are irrelevant again - one is tiny sample size, other is about trucks.

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by DoingIsLearning on Friday November 27, 2020 @04:10AM (#25226822)
> First I totally think we should discourage driving in cities, no matter the car. Pedestrian only streets, public transport, bike lanes is 100% my vibe.

There we have common ground.

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by danieldk on Thursday November 26, 2020 @10:09AM (#25220618)
Not intended in a nasty way, just factual:

The only reason I drive it is because it's so comfortable to sit higher up, and to have a better view of the road that way.

And thereby blocking the view of 'regular' cars.

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by tonyedgecombe on Thursday November 26, 2020 @10:26AM (#25220776)
And thereby blocking the view of 'regular' cars.

And small children.

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by roel_v on Thursday November 26, 2020 @10:14AM (#25220670)
Only to a degree I think - when you're sitting in a lower car, you can't view over other cars anyway. I guess you can see through other cars' windows, which is harder when the other cars are higher, like for me when I'm between several trucks. I don't recall that as being a 'problem' as such from when I drove a lower car. Maybe other people experience it differently.
Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by maccard on Thursday November 26, 2020 @10:47AM (#25220960)
Any junction where there's a lane on your outside, a person in a "normal" sized car is unable to see through into the junction.

For some reason, all of the traffic lights installed in my city now don't have a set of lights at the far side of the junction visible, so there is a fairly large window where you can be stuck with no visibility of the traffic lights in 2 lanes of traffic if you might have a filter light.

There's also rear view mirrors (big vehicle takes up more of my window, so I can't see if there's a bike coming)

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by holstvoogd on Thursday November 26, 2020 @12:12PM (#25221791)
Main issue I always had with SUVs is the lights. They all have way to bright xenon lights. When you drive a sports car (I drove a fiat coupe & a mx-5/Miata) in the dark you cannot see anything when a SUV is behind you.

Not to speak of opposing(?) traffic on smaller roads. I almost died several times ;)

Very happy to no longer have a car.

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by dzhiurgis on Thursday November 26, 2020 @03:43PM (#25223382)
How about trucks, buses, semis, delivery trucks and all other machinery?
Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by afiori on Thursday November 26, 2020 @10:18AM (#25220710)
In terms of perspective a raised POV can generally help with visibility, independetly to how tall other cars are.

Or even how tall the windscreen is can be a significant factor, in my car it is so short that the rearview mirror covers a significant part of the street.

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by saiya-jin on Thursday November 26, 2020 @10:14AM (#25220675)
This is argument of people that don't know how to drive well & safely. Maybe not tailgating every other car and just keeping the safe distance would be enough? It definitely is for me and my car is lower than average sedan.
Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by throwaway0a5e on Thursday November 26, 2020 @10:55AM (#25221051)
It goes both ways.

If the person in front of you isn't driving like such an jerk that you need to be looking around them to predict their moves or to find a passing opportunity it's not really a big deal.

Re:For the first time in Europe, registrations for EVs overt... by virgilp on Thursday November 26, 2020 @10:57AM (#25221073)
I get the feeling - moving in the opposite direction (from MPV to an estate/ V60), it's definitely more difficult to get in & out. That said - the better view might be a bit misleading, a high position makes you more susceptible to look closer, which is maybe ok at very low city speeds but not great at highway speeds).

That said, it doesn't explain why MPVs all but disappeared (have been almost completely replaced by SUVs).