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Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by zepto on Monday November 23, 2020 @02:36PM (#25190733)
Apple’s security chief should be fired over this.

But, this is common practice where there are ‘may issue’ CCW permits. Either have shall issue, or no issue. Having the sheriff decide just creates a valuable commodity.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by vlovich123 on Monday November 23, 2020 @02:58PM (#25191018)
What's even more galling is that if I were personally caught in such a situation as an IC, I would have been fired instantly. That he is the head of ethics compliance at Apple makes it even more galling, especially given that the company forces everyone through this kind of training when really only management & leadership violations of these ethics trainings can possibly get the company into serious trouble.

> He has overall responsibility for Apple’s ethics and compliance program including Apple’s Business Conduct Policy, governing the ethical and legal obligations of Apple’s Board, executives and over 130,000 employees around the world,

A delivery of 200 iPads as a bribe to get CCW permits makes me think it's more involved. Although this may be with his discretionary power, it's shocking to me that the donation was aborted as soon as warrants went out. I'd like to better understand what happened at Apple.

Beyond the problem of "may issue" permits you raise, I'd love to remove this kind of discretion for discovery. For example, when bringing charges like this the DA must be obligated to initiate discovery of the company documents to investigate how far reaching the problem may be (settlements can't begin to be negotiated until the DA completes discovery).

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by blueflame7 on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:30PM (#25194224)
I'm pretty sure this guy was just hired
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by vlovich123 on Monday November 23, 2020 @10:12PM (#25194879)
His LinkedIn has him working at Apple for 14 years and in his current role for at least 2.

What information source did you use to come to the conclusion that he was just hired?

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by blueflame7 on Monday November 23, 2020 @10:35PM (#25195021)
I stand corrected. I confused Apple and Twitter when recalling this article.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2020/nov/17/twitter-h...

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by gertrunde on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:08PM (#25191118)
I found one of the last paragraphs quite interesting...

"He has overall responsibility for Apple’s ethics and compliance program"

The head of Ethics being involved in bribery? Yeah, that's a problem.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by zepto on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:12PM (#25191162)
That’s why the firing.

On the other hand, I think he’s in difficult position given that this kind of shakedown is common practice.

What’s especially absurd is that there are many people who carry concealed guns into the Bay Area legally every day, who just happen to live in counties where CCW’s are easily approved.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by WrtCdEvrydy on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:29PM (#25193734)
> who just happen to live in counties where CCW’s are easily approved.

I wonder what the legal implications of "moving for CCW" would look like. In Florida, you just have to notify the state that you moved... do a little scoot to the right county, get the CCW, move back.

This could be a hot fangled startup, "GunCCW"... "move to where you get your rights". Wonder what the legal penalty for letting someone change their address to your house for a bit would look like.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by vl on Monday November 23, 2020 @02:49PM (#25190888)
And this is why we need federal shall-issue CCW permits and common weapon lows. This hot mess of nonsense across the states needs to stop.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by kube-system on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:06PM (#25191103)
That mess of laws is an inherent part of our strong foundation in federalism.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by samatman on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:55PM (#25193949)
Quite so, along with this clause of the 14th Amendment: "No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

I'm not alone in thinking that California's oppressive may-issue CCW laws deny citizens the equal protection of the law guaranteed by the 2nd Amendment, and would welcome Federal intervention in this specific instance.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by pps43 on Monday November 23, 2020 @06:38PM (#25193282)
Yet somehow the 1st or 5th Amendment are applied across all states uniformly, unlike the 2nd.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by kube-system on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:15PM (#25193615)
States still have their own laws regarding legal procedure and speech rights, and they do vary by state. Those overarching rights are still a patchwork between states. Many states give protections that go beyond the requirements in the US Constitution -- this is completely legal and not uncommon. The Bill of Rights mainly defines which laws are illegal -- it does not prescribe what is legal.

This is currently what is the case with shall-issue vs may-issue, at least until SCOTUS clarifies otherwise.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by pageandrew on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:35PM (#25193785)
> the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed

Seems like denying some people the right to bear arms would pretty plainly constitute an infringement, no?

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by kube-system on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:44PM (#25193868)
SCOTUS has not ruled on this issue, so it is technically undetermined. SCOTUS has ruled in other cases that there are some situations where people can be denied those rights legally, so determining the outcome is not as simple as reading the text. SCOTUS generally evaluates the law in a broader context than just the written text.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by adrr on Monday November 23, 2020 @06:58PM (#25193483)
How Grand Juries work is up to the states. They vary a lot. Even how regular juries work is up to the states eg: Oregon doesn't require unanimous verdict. I am sure you can dig into 1st amendment and find differences across the states. I am sure states have laws on how and where you can petition.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by wnoise on Monday November 23, 2020 @09:22PM (#25194588)
Oregon and Lousiana didn't. They do now, thanks to a recent SCOTUS case.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apodaca_v._Oregon

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by rkt88edmo on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:52PM (#25194379)
To incorporate, or not incorporate - that is the question.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by bacondude3 on Monday November 23, 2020 @06:40PM (#25193298)
State laws that contradict federal legislation is not a foundation of Federalism, though.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by kube-system on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:25PM (#25193700)
1. It sort of is. The prevailing founding arguments for federalism was as a check against the national government. Even today, 35 states contradict the federal government's regulation that states marijuana has "no currently accepted medical use"

2. Only SCOTUS can definitively say whether or not may-issue contradicts the 2nd.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by rmk on Monday November 23, 2020 @06:51PM (#25193410)
Right, but the Federal Government has stepped in when it was taken too far. That's why Ruby Bridges was escorted to school 60 years ago.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by SpicyLemonZest on Monday November 23, 2020 @06:47PM (#25193365)
But shall-issue permits are only common in the first place because states were allowed to independently try it out. Up until the mid-90s, almost all states were either may-issue or no-issue.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by mlindner on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:02PM (#25193527)
Do you have a source for that? Gun laws have only gotten more strict in recent years, not less strict.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by LyndsySimon on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:34PM (#25194257)
> Gun laws have only gotten more strict in recent years, not less strict

This is definitely not true at the state level, and not exactly true at the federal level either.

Every state to which I regularly travel is now "constitutional carry" - i.e., no permit needed at all. None of them were ten years ago.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by SpicyLemonZest on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:22PM (#25193672)
Wikipedia has a good summary at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_concealed_carry_in_.... (there's supposed to be a period at the end of the link).

Of course, concealed carry restrictions aren't the only gun laws in the country, but I have to admit I'm just not very informed on any others. I do know California's handgun registry has gotten stricter.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by binarycodedhex on Monday November 23, 2020 @02:44PM (#25190826)
I lived there for 35 years.

Her Majesty Laurie only bestows a few CCWs to a handful of business people and her buddies. People can apply for CCWs all they want, but she'll never issue them willingly. She's a bureaucrat and a crook keeping the populace defenseless and maintaining LE job security.

https://imgur.com/anZTMPx

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by calvinmorrison on Monday November 23, 2020 @02:51PM (#25190916)
Imagining getting indicted for having to bribe a local official to exercise an essential right, specifically listed in the Bill of Rights, and held up repeatedly in the courts (Hello DC v. Heller).

It's a situation where there are two classes, the haves and have nots. If you aren't politically connected in NJ, NY, CA, etc - good luck. If you exercise these rights, you will end up in a prison cell.

Even places like PA - a very gun friendly state - this is working its way through the courts for other reasons. For example, in Philadelphia they have closed the permitting office repeatedly for COVID, bystepping the law which requires them to issue a permit in 45 days, by simply not accepting applications.

That's America.

I can only hope the SCOTUS will take up new cases on this.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by throwawaygh on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:22PM (#25191282)
> For example, in Philadelphia they have closed the permitting office repeatedly for COVID, bystepping the law which requires them to issue a permit in 45 days, by simply not accepting applications.

This was a HUGE deal in the PA gun community, and I simply cannot understand why.

1. PA extended the expiration date on existing permits that expired after February until Dec 31. It was only new permits requests where the delay actually effected anyone.

2. The delays weren't specific to guns. Government offices closed and then opened at reduced capacity. This also happened for DLs.

3. The remedy provided by the state was also not specific to guns. Again, e.g., expiring driver's licenses were extended.

4. The state's choice not to prioritize streamlining this paperwork was reasonable. It had huge budget shortfalls and more important things to worry about (acquiring/distributing PPE, acquiring/distributing respirators, high unemployment, evictions, running elections, finding overflow space for hospitals, moving schools to remote, figuring out how to safely open up service businesses/schools, and the list goes on...)

5. To the extent that streamlining paper work should have been a larger priority, given the severe stress on logistics networks, I'd imagine CDLs would be the place to spend those limited resources rather than CCW applications.

So, an unavoidable delay happened in LOTS of government processes -- only one of which was CCW issuance -- and the government provided uniform remediation to help partially mitigate the impact of delays in all of those processes.

No one was coming for anyone's guns.

TBH the foaming-at-the-mouth response to unavoidable reasonable delays in processing concealed carry permits during a public health emergency is the sort of thing that makes me (a gun owner) feel completely antagonistic toward the PA 2A advocacy community.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by calvinmorrison on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:35PM (#25191452)
> I simply cannot understand why anyone gives a damn about this.

Because I currently cannot get a LCTF from the city. That's why I give a damn. It is currently effecting me. I had no need for that before corona virus, I do need one now.

Bucks county is issuing it in 15 minutes. Philly does a whole interview process which goes beyond a basic NICS check and they have chosen to be poorly staffed for a very long time.

Again, they set up a complicated process for applications, then shut it down, all of which is of their own (the cities) volition.

It's not reasonable delays. There are people who don't have their appointment until December, 2021. more than a year out.

Anyway, it's all really arguing something that should be moot - A persons right should not depend on the government service choosing to open its office.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by throwawaygh on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:58PM (#25191797)
> Because I currently cannot get a LCTF from the city... I had no need for that before corona virus, I do need one now.

I'm not questioning that you really do need a LTCF, but with COVID and the protests and the election suddenly everyone "needs" a gun.

So there's reduced capacity + HUGE surge in demand + severe budget shortfalls. It's not a conspiracy. It's just queuing theory.

> Bucks county is issuing it in 15 minutes. Philly does a whole interview process which goes beyond a basic NICS check and they have chosen to be poorly staffed for a very long time.

Allegheny is far less onerous than Philly but also has long wait times.

Also, these super long wait times are a relatively recent development. I expect Sheriff's offices will do what they can to address the problem in the new FY.

> Anyway, it's all really arguing something that should be moot - A persons right should not depend on the government service choosing to open its office.

Again, priorities. Tell that to the people waiting in jail for far longer than constitutionally permissible for hearings because of delays in the courts. Should we reallocate cash from judicial processes to CCW processes and have those folks wait in jail an extra few months so that folks who got all jittery a few months before the election can forget to show up to their CCW appointments?

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by calvinmorrison on Monday November 23, 2020 @04:08PM (#25191915)
It's interesting, because with a financial incentive, stores have no problem running NICS checks in a few short minutes.

I am uninterested in the government itself creating onerous requirements to execute basic rights and then complaining when they can't manage it in a reasonable time.

And of course, the courts have ruled there is a reasonable amount of time, that's 45 days. It's been litigated.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by throwawaygh on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:52PM (#25194382)
> with a financial incentive

I guess it doesn't need saying, but government offices have no such incentive. In fact, we don't want government offices to have such an incentive, and we even make it illegal to construct such an incentive in certain ways. See: the article.

> the courts have ruled there is a reasonable amount of time, that's 45 days. It's been litigated.

Courts don't control purse strings, and the remedy you're asking for here is pretty extreme given the circumstances.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by chipsa on Monday November 23, 2020 @09:28PM (#25194623)
A right delayed is a right denied. And it's not just queues, apparently. It's the office is closed. The line isn't moving.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by throwawaygh on Monday November 23, 2020 @11:07PM (#25195180)
The office was closed back in March when pretty much everything was closed. AFAIK it's been open for months, but there's an enormous backlog because the backlog + reduced capacity (need to do everything by appointment for social distancing and keep appointment slots large enough to ensure physical queues don't form) + increased demand.

People are queuing for hours to get COVID tests, hospitals are reaching capacity, and people are rotting in prison because they can't get an appointment in front of a judge. In normal times I would be more sympathetic. There are greater injustices than waiting a few months for your LTCF, and more important forms of justice (habeas corpus) being delayed.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by tshaddox on Monday November 23, 2020 @06:46PM (#25193356)
I suspect the other commenter’s point is that they thing there should not be any procedural requirements whatsoever for concealed carry.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by agensaequivocum on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @01:33AM (#25195906)
This is one reason why there should be no permitting, just unrestricted carry.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by rkt88edmo on Monday November 23, 2020 @09:09PM (#25194498)
I'll throw out a few things , even though I don't know much about PA. In some places if your permit expires you are now a criminal and breaking the law, which may put your ability to own any firerms at risk, so staying in compliance is a huge deal. Also, lapses in permits may submit you to a whole new round of scrutiny when you reapply. Often, the fees we pay for these permits are meant to fund the work to issue them. It isn't uncommon for those fees to get diverted elsewhere, so now we paid for services we aren't receiving. These things have happened to firearms owners so we are hypersensitized to these issues.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by 15155 on Monday November 23, 2020 @10:20PM (#25194928)
"Justice too long delayed is justice denied."
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by tshaddox on Monday November 23, 2020 @06:41PM (#25193309)
I don’t think the fact that something is an “essential right” implies that’s it’s okay to commit bribery or other crimes during the procedural steps to exercise that right. Presumably it ought to be illegal to bribe a government official to move your court date up, even though the right to a speedy trial is also protected by the bill of rights.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by t-writescode on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:07PM (#25191112)
Given that major strides against Gun Control were originally performed by Ronald Reagan in California ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mulford_Act ), I have trouble imagining a Conservative Supreme Court will take a textualist perspective on gun control laws, despite their political leaning and assumptions here.

edit: I can't spell :/

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by da_big_ghey on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:10PM (#25191151)
Yep, this is one of the best examples of the racism that underlies a large amount of gun control. For other examples, see the laws targeting Saturday-night specials, or even the army/navy laws in the Jim Crow south. Today we're seeing much of this repeated with increased paperwork requirements, taxes, and price increases. Regulatory requirements and ATF overreach decreases supply and helps move affordable firearms out of reach for many working-class or poor Americans. Many people are concerned by increased voting requirements preventing people from voting, but fail to understand that these regulations do the same for gun rights. Or maybe they do, and it's intentional.

Reagan did a whole lot worse than this. He signed the Hughes Amendment, which cut off the supply of new, civilian-transferrable machine guns. I just can't understand how anyone likes the guy in spite of the awful things he did to gun rights. The Republican party is only somewhat less awful for gun rights than the Democrats.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by rkt88edmo on Monday November 23, 2020 @09:12PM (#25194516)
Similar tactics when it comes to voter's rights/vote suppression. This is where the brain breaking schism happens. Same tools used to restrict vitally important freedoms, but the political divide will rabidly endorse one but fight the other. They are all attacks on freedom and democracy.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by calvinmorrison on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:08PM (#25191130)
Basically whataboutism at this point. The conceal carry movement has grown leaps and bounds since the 70's and DC v. Heller wasn't until 2008.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by t-writescode on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:10PM (#25191153)
Less "whataboutism" and more "the ship for undoing (arguably) unconstitutional gun control laws has long, long sailed and we're never getting those rights back."

I suppose we _might_ get changes to the CCW laws; but, anything more complicated than that is never returning in the United States.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by mattlutze on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:24PM (#25191310)
DC v. Heller specifically in the Decision text does not support or go against CCW laws or prohibitions, rather leaving those to the existing state and federal laws. It was a finding against a ban on private holding and keeping of firearms, and of keeping firearms in the home in a state easily fired.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by Rebelgecko on Monday November 23, 2020 @06:52PM (#25193425)
Keep an eye on Young v Hawaii in the coming months. Should be interesting.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by rkt88edmo on Monday November 23, 2020 @09:05PM (#25194470)
If you know that much, you know that Heller and McDonald do not address arms outside the home :)
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by jakear on Monday November 23, 2020 @02:57PM (#25191004)
Ha! I’d bet the security head did not do this of their own accord, there was almost certainly a higher-up approving it. And what would apple do, replace their head of security (who is willing and able to navigate sociopolitical constructs in order to do their job to the fullest extent possible) with some random fellow who would turn around at the first “no” from some beurocrat and report back to senior leadership that the only people who will be allowed to have guns on Apple campus are the criminals? Highly highly doubtful.

If they do get fired, it will be as a scapegoat, probably with a large severance, and any company in the world would hire them up immediately.

Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by sigzero on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:15PM (#25193610)
You have no idea if what you are saying is even remotely true.
Re:Apple’s head of security indicted in Santa Clara County C... by jakear on Monday November 23, 2020 @08:39PM (#25194294)
None at all. Neither did the parent. We’re two (now three) strangers sharing opinions.