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Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by citizenpaul on Sunday November 22, 2020 @04:04PM (#25181088)
I've been banging this drum for years. Oh we can now get by with only X employees whom now have 95% of their work day spoken for.

What happens when something goes wrong, what happens when someone quits or is sick? What happens when business needs to change/pivot/innovate? This idea that optimized time is somehow 100% wasted is killing a lot of people.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by allenu on Sunday November 22, 2020 @05:24PM (#25181694)
This is so true. Highly efficient systems can be fragile. If one part breaks down, the whole is affected. The system needs a bit of slack to be able to handle the unexpected. It's been a while since I read it, but I think the book Slack by Tom DeMarco argues this.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by dvtrn on Sunday November 22, 2020 @06:06PM (#25181965)
My job role in middle-management forces me to have these conversations frequently, resource planning and such.

I am often asking questions of my senior leaders about the volume of organizational change that is a constant in the company and what I can do to act as a “shock absorber” for my direct reports and subordinate leaders.

A major customer facing outage resulted in an RCA compiled by yours truly. I found that a critical engineer had quit months before-never backfilled. Work got reassigned to other people. A second event and second RCA, similarly created by me. Same story: an Ops person had left the company last year, never backfilled. A third. Each time I pointed to workloads and capacities. Not because it’s my job to do these things specifically or by expectations of my director but because no one else in the 400 person organization is yet no one else knows how to go looking for this info so it’s sort of become my duty just because I have enough of a damn to start doing it. These aren’t even MY teams, shit just rolls down hill and my team is at the bottom of the shit pipe. Which is something I hoped bringing these results would get action on. They barely have.

What I’ve come to conclude is that my leaders are NOT thinking about these things until someone or something catastrophic forces them to.

If I had the balls I would straight up ask my senior leaders “what would you say it is you do here if it’s taken such severe consequences to start looking at what we’re asking our people to do?”

What’s most saddening: it’s becoming alarmingly common from job to job. It’s forced me to rethink drastically how I’m vetting companies because they do a GREAT job disguising this during interviews.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by lotsofpulp on Sunday November 22, 2020 @06:17PM (#25182021)
> What I’ve come to conclude is that my leaders are NOT thinking about these things until someone or something catastrophic forces them to.

No one gets paid for preventing problems. They get paid for increasing profit, either by increasing revenue and/or reducing costs. I would bet your leaders are consciously trying to skate by and reap the short term rewards and hoping someone like you fills in the gaps. As long as the problem can’t be pinned on them, or they can bounce before it causes sufficient disruption to the business to affect compensation, their goals are met.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by mola on Monday November 23, 2020 @02:12AM (#25184275)
> No one gets paid for preventing problems. They get paid for increasing profit

This is not a law of nature. Different cultural norms yields different business priorities. The fact of the matter is that money is only a surrogate for value, it is not the actual thing. Current business teaching has ideologically put the money hoarders in charge where increasing their profits is the only appropriate moral behavior. This yields a legitimacy and incentive for shortermist thinking.

Equating money with value builds a distorted view of what humans actually value. Money is not ideal in representing the value of stability, fairness or compassion. these are very basic human values which are shared by most of us, yet money cannot encode these faithfully.

We shouldn't accept the side effects of our choice to use money as surrogate for value as some form of natural law.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by dvtrn on Sunday November 22, 2020 @06:20PM (#25182034)
Probably. Maybe. I have no clue. I only recently found out there have been three people in this middle management role before me; not a single one of them stayed around for two years. I’m on month 14 and started working on the resume this morning. :/
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by lotsofpulp on Sunday November 22, 2020 @06:22PM (#25182045)
Certain middle management positions are setup to be “fall guy” positions. Technically, everyone is a fall guy for the person above them, but some more than others.

For example, the budget gets decided a few levels up, but the the immediate manager knows they aren’t being given the resources to succeed. Then their strategy, if they have the ability, might be to hire someone who they can point a finger to when it inevitably fails.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by dvtrn on Sunday November 22, 2020 @06:34PM (#25182103)
Semi-related but I also wonder much longer we’ll be hearing the use of “the pandemic” as reasons for leadership decision making.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by efitz on Sunday November 22, 2020 @10:54PM (#25183421)
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by beckingz on Sunday November 22, 2020 @11:58PM (#25183728)
This is great.

The morale of the story is that it takes a year to figure out that organization-person fit is bad?

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by joe_the_user on Monday November 23, 2020 @12:47AM (#25183945)
No one gets paid for preventing problems.

That may be true now but it seems like a recipe for disaster (check 3-4 ongoing disasters outside my window, yep). I assume in earlier eras society prepared for disasters, paid people to prevent disasters and so-forth. Has something changed?

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by fnrslvr on Monday November 23, 2020 @07:22AM (#25185974)
I think the point being made here, is that it is difficult to gain recognition for counterfactuals.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by ntr-- on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:43AM (#25184768)
I feel like a lot of this is attributable to the push towards devops.

In my junior role I did the development and the ops guys did the deployments and we both knew at least some of what the other person did. It helped knowledge transfer of hot new framework from me to the elder ops people and sage unix wisdom from them down to me. We had a "read-only" Friday where deployments were forbidden to help prevent outages over the weekend. The software changed slowly and employee churn was minimal.

Now (much later) I'm elsewhere, expected to do the dev, the ops, the deployment itself, the documentation, training a junior all the while; there are effectively half as many people keeping the ship afloat.

The most bizarre part of all is my daily rate is almost 3x what it was then, as the market dictates for such drudgery. Relevant to the article it's obviously strategic for me to accept that, but if the rates weren't so absurd and you could get a dev and an ops for 0.5x the devops rate each the company would get twice as many man-hours, not to mention the added safety of doubling the system's bus factor, cutting workloads in half and vastly improving employee quality of life. Companies offering a devops role for 1.5x a single developer's rate 10 years ago to ostensibly save themselves 0.5 of a salary, are now collectively getting 0.333x as much value out of their hires (and then losing them completely when they burn out and being thrust into chaos).

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by mattgreenrocks on Sunday November 22, 2020 @08:18PM (#25182657)
Hope you find a company that values this quality. Don’t be afraid to move on after two years or so until you find a good one.

Re: vetting companies, it’s so true. You probably have a lot of wisdom already, but it’s quite the learning process.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by dvtrn on Sunday November 22, 2020 @08:37PM (#25182776)
I would consume like Thanksgiving turkey any recommended reading on asking difficult questions in job interviews without immediately getting dismissed as “not a culture fit”.

Had that happen once. Friend in one department made a referral for me to join another, I ask pointed and direct questions in the interview-which was otherwise light hearted and engaging, the response was filibustering, platitudinous non-answers about “shared sacrifices” and “we all jump in” and “take the flank” and “no man left behind” (please do NOT get me started on the amount of militarized battle-speak that has rooted itself into corporate America like a tick). So I tactfully and delicately but firmly try to bring the conversation back on track.

Friend tells me a few days later “they disqualified you as not being a good culture fit. What did you say??”

“I asked what the on-call schedule was like”

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by blisse on Sunday November 22, 2020 @11:29PM (#25183593)
Definitely don't have the experience asking these questions, but I think this would be much better served as a question to the hiring manager and as follow-up questions post-interview, as opposed to "confrontations" during the interview? Usually after they've extended the offer, before you've accepted, you can have more "real" talks with your supposed manager, which might be a more appropriate time (since you'll eventually have real 1:1s with them anyways).
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by dvtrn on Monday November 23, 2020 @10:47AM (#25187957)
I think this would be much better served as a question to the hiring manager and as follow-up questions post-interview, as opposed to "confrontations" during the interview?

That's the kicker: experience has taught me that if I don't ask specific (but tactful) questions about things that have caused excess anxiety and stress in the job, and how the company interviewing me handles them (or fails to handle them) early enough, I find out in the worst ways after taking the job and starting.

This is no attempt at setting myself up for malingering down the road, I am not that kind of a person; but I have also grasped how important it is to interview the company as much as the company is interviewing me. If they get to be stringent about how good we would "fit", then so should job candidates.

And ironically given the thread we're in about 'over optimization', it's just not worth the time to me to wait until getting an offer to find out the engineering culture believes in 'drinking from the firehose'. I want to know that early, so as to self-select out.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by mft_ on Monday November 23, 2020 @02:41AM (#25184400)
> What’s most saddening: it’s becoming alarmingly common from job to job. It’s forced me to rethink drastically how I’m vetting companies because they do a GREAT job disguising this during interviews.

Any flashes of inspiration on this?

I’m always searching for the perfect set of little questions to help uncover the real culture of a company, rather than the platitudinous corporate-buzzword answers about culture you otherwise get.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by citizenpaul on Monday November 30, 2020 @11:05AM (#25255166)
I think the market is taking care of it. That is why there are a million SAAS companies that seem redundant. Also why there are a million micro brands for simple things. I think this is a backlash exactly from this 100% efficiency thinking.

Software and manufacturing are both highly susceptible to misery from this efficiency BS. If you are gonna work to death might as well start your own company.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by theoka on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:00AM (#25184522)
Was looking at your username while reading, trying figure out which person from my org you are though we're in different industries. The similarities are uncanny; company size, leadership issues, ops person leaving, which of course is disturbing but makes me feel less crazy.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by dvtrn on Monday November 23, 2020 @11:02AM (#25188146)
I am you.

You are me.

?

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by chrisweekly on Sunday November 22, 2020 @08:55PM (#25182867)
It's not just that [over-]optimized systems "can be" fragile; they are by definition. Efficiency is at one pole, resilience is at the other.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by AshWolfy on Sunday November 22, 2020 @09:16PM (#25182969)
i mean we literally just saw this how covid overwhelmed our just in time supply chains
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by brtkdotse on Sunday November 22, 2020 @05:08PM (#25181578)
My wife’s grandma was married to Nils Bohlin, the inventor of the seatbelt. Sadly, I didn’t get to meet him but my wife’s grandmother told me a lot of stories about him.

One thing that stuck out was that at Volvo in the sixties they overstuffed engineers by up to 40% to have a buffer in something happened.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by npsimons on Sunday November 22, 2020 @07:40PM (#25182451)
This is a trope we see repeated: back in "the day", they couldn't run the numbers, so for safety margins, they just overengineered. It's usually applied to civil engineering, but I could see how it could be applied to staffing too.

I don't bemoan having a clearer picture of costs or margins of safety. What this speaks to is re-examining our values and perhaps directing our priorities to something other than maximizing ROI at all costs.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by inglor_cz on Monday November 23, 2020 @02:50AM (#25184448)
"they couldn't run the numbers, so for safety margins, they just overengineered."

That was definitely the case in the Ancient World and may be the reason why some Roman buildings are still standing.

(Roman concrete was awesome, BTW. Rebar is a major source of eventual concrete failure and Romans did not use any. On the other hand, they used volcanic ash in their concrete. Some Roman concrete piers are still standing, 2000 years of waves beating on them made them harder!)

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by TheCoelacanth on Sunday November 22, 2020 @08:00PM (#25182556)
And in spite of having larger safety margins, they were much less safe for the occupants.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by ntsplnkv2 on Sunday November 22, 2020 @11:32PM (#25183614)
> What this speaks to is re-examining our values and perhaps directing our priorities to something other than maximizing ROI at all costs.

Our entire system is built upon maximizing ROI at all costs. Dealing with these values is extremely difficult.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by npsimons on Monday November 23, 2020 @11:04AM (#25188174)
> Our entire system is built upon maximizing ROI at all costs. Dealing with these values is extremely difficult.

I may have miscommunicated; perhaps I should have phrased it as re-evaluating what "return" we want to maximize.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by lotsofpulp on Sunday November 22, 2020 @05:39PM (#25181794)
How can they have afforded to sell their vehicles at a competitive price?
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by jka on Sunday November 22, 2020 @07:11PM (#25182310)
There are likely lots of second-order effects here, so it's hard to tell.

The engineers may have been better rested and thus able to deliver more quickly and reliably thanks to a sense that they had an effective peer support group.

The eventual product quality may have been higher thanks to the additional oversight, review and input - leading to increased market demand.

The support, stability and resulting confidence offered to employees may have spread via word-of-mouth to their familities, friends and extended networks, increasing marketplace faith in the company and trust in the product.

And, perhaps the simplest albeit least thought-provoking explanation: perhaps the additional 40% engineering salary overhead did not have a significant impact on the company finances.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by mlavin on Sunday November 22, 2020 @07:14PM (#25182321)
Sell sturdy vehicles with compelling features, like standard front three-point seatbelts in 1959? Volvo did go through the financial wringer into the 1970s, with a rocky launch of the 200-series and the heavy vehicle division being separated from Volvo Cars, but the 700-series was enough to bring them back into solid financial standing.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by ornornor on Monday November 23, 2020 @01:55AM (#25184204)
I don’t think it’s either/or. In my organization people pride themselves of being 150% occupied. But it means they’re doing a half assed job at everything, kicking cans down the road just to keep afloat, and are juggling multiple projects at the same time. The bottom line isn’t much better than if they were 50 or 75% busy because the work quality is so low. We have to redo things all the time as a result. A colleague/close friend of mine is smarter and works at 50 to 75% capacity. Her output is very similar to overworked colleagues because he doesn’t have to redo things several times but a he’s far less tired and makes better decisions. The difference with her is that she doesn’t have a mortgage and her financial commitments are far lower than her income. She doesn’t fear being let go.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by numpad0 on Sunday November 22, 2020 @11:34PM (#25183622)
Parent comment did not say if they were overstaffed relative to competitors.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by ClumsyPilot on Sunday November 22, 2020 @08:34PM (#25182757)
What do you imagine is the situation at Apple? Are their products uncompetitive?
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by andrewjl on Sunday November 22, 2020 @10:15PM (#25183257)
Likely due to oligopolism[1].

[1] http://paulgraham.com/re.html

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by inglor_cz on Monday November 23, 2020 @02:52AM (#25184461)
Maybe things like healthcare, childcare and houses were much cheaper back then, so the engineers did not demand high salaries?
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by mjevans on Sunday November 22, 2020 @05:02PM (#25181527)
Limited opportunities and disasters are both hard real time events and should be strongly weighted when considering true staffing levels. The performance capacity in the worst case setting often matters. (Though I've seen too many places where the answer is to put everyone on a death march level of overtime / crunch to cover that.)
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by ornornor on Monday November 23, 2020 @02:00AM (#25184215)
The disasters often become the baseline and the job becomes firefighting/deathmarches. But everyone tricks themselves thinking it’s temporary and will pass as soon as we deliver X. Then X is delivered but when we deliver Y is when it will really get better. Rinse and repeat.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by rubixdude on Sunday November 22, 2020 @06:24PM (#25182054)
I run a support department for a SaaS product and we’re lean. Everything is fine unless someone is sick or wants to take vacation. Of course hiring another person is never the answer according to the budget gods.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by npsimons on Sunday November 22, 2020 @07:41PM (#25182460)
> Everything is fine unless someone is sick or wants to take vacation.

That doesn't sound "fine" to me. People get sick. Vacations are necessities.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by nullsense on Sunday November 22, 2020 @06:48PM (#25182174)
I'm in that position right now and it's massively contributing to burnout.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by ddingus on Sunday November 22, 2020 @07:28PM (#25182389)
I left a scene like that, and people I love dearly to avoid burnout.

Ended up with some. Am healing. Will be OK.

A decade ago many asked, "where is the new blood?" Could see it coming. Right now, people aging and burning out are super expensive to replace. In some ways they can't be.

I consider failure to manage this kind of debt severe. When it comes due, it is brutal.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by rocmcd on Sunday November 22, 2020 @07:23PM (#25182365)
Support does not (directly) make money, so it is doomed to be seen as a drain. I’ve fought the same battle at every company I’ve worked at, and I’m starting to think it is hopeless.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by georgeecollins on Monday November 23, 2020 @03:02PM (#25191063)
There is a pretty good book on this issue, which I think is something you should take seriously if you are running an organization that over optimizes:

"Slack: Getting Past Burnout, Busywork, and the Myth of Total Efficiency"

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B004SOVC2Y/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?...

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by SulfurHexaFluri on Sunday November 22, 2020 @05:26PM (#25181709)
Depends how time critical the work is. Its likely cheaper to have a group of devs at close to full capacity and if something comes up then you just push the over capacity work in to the future and plan to hire more developers. How much of the stuff that normally goes on in the business can't wait a month.
Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by ddingus on Sunday November 22, 2020 @07:32PM (#25182405)
10 percent of them get sick. Now current work is pushed to the future, until it can't be.

What then?

Hard to spool people up quick enough to avoid a real hit, and second order impact.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by ryanobjc on Sunday November 22, 2020 @08:04PM (#25182581)
There’s a reason why companies like google jumped on the covid thing earlier than most. Imagine an SRE group that got hit by a covid cluster. Now imagine that group handles... oh I dunno YouTube. Or search.

Even for mild cases of covid, the recovery can look like the flu. That means 1-2 weeks off work. And reduced ability for weeks after that. Now half of your team gets it at once.

Efficiency and resiliency are in opposite tension.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by ddingus on Sunday November 22, 2020 @08:27PM (#25182713)
Truth. I survived Covid. Caught it very early in the year. Just unfortunate time and place.

Short story?

Was down hard for a few weeks. Still struggling with a general lack of energy that has slowly been improving.

Brain fog is a thing. Better now, but during and for the few weeks after Covid? Rough. Would walk into a room only to realize I had no idea why.

Again, all improving, but for some of us Covid has a longer term impact beyond possibly losing a month being sick.

Very true.

Valuing this risk properly seems to be the major disconnect.

With it valued reasonably, the extra head count makes perfect sense!

I wonder why people don't just work in the opposite direction? Rather than run too lean, run properly, risks managed as they should be.

Then be opportunistic!

Every so often, when things are favorable, take work that matters an nail it for a nice payback!

Works about the same over a longer period, and the big costs are totally off the table.

Re:We’re Optimizing Ourselves to Death (2019) by SulfurHexaFluri on Sunday November 22, 2020 @08:29PM (#25182722)
Google and basically all tech companies will still exist after this. Its probably preferable to take a hit once in a disaster situation than to be constantly paying to avoid it. Its the same with large companies not having insurance because its cheaper to not pay it and then if one building burns down they take the hit but they still saved more in the times where nothing went wrong.