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Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by adrianN on Saturday November 21, 2020 @02:23PM (#25172063)
Everybody is receiving benefits from well maintained roads, just like everyone is receiving benefits from schools. Why special taxes for users unless you want to discourage use? Just pay for maintenance from the general budget.
Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by perlgeek on Saturday November 21, 2020 @03:51PM (#25172663)
If you pay for maintenance from the general budget, you are allowing shipping companies (for example) to externalize cost that they incur on society.

This is generally a bad thing, but very concretely it led to road traffic growing much faster than rail traffic (or canal ship traffic) even in countries with a very dense rail network.

Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by URSpider94 on Saturday November 21, 2020 @06:14PM (#25173463)
This, and it also subsidizes people’s decisions to live far away from where they work and commute by car every day. There was a time when I think that would have been seen as a public good, and thus people were ok with that. Now is not that time.

Comparing this with free public education, by not charging user fees to attend school, we are subsidizing (a) having children, and (b) educating them at the expense of the childless and I guess people who don’t want to educate their kids. We subsidize those because we believe they are truly public goods that are better for everyone in the long run. Encouraging people to drive more and ship more things by truck is not necessarily better for everyone.

Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by FpUser on Saturday November 21, 2020 @06:34PM (#25173547)
>"This, and it also subsidizes people’s decisions to live far away from where they work and commute by car every day."

Hence greatly increasing chances of finding better or any employment and at least partially reducing pressure employers can come up with.

  ...
  You load sixteen tons, what do you get?
  Another day older and deeper in debt
  Saint Peter don't you call me 'cause I can't go
  I owe my soul to the company store 
  ...
Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by URSpider94 on Sunday November 22, 2020 @03:28AM (#25175918)
That’s an interesting take. I mostly think of it in terms of urban sprawl - if it weren’t for the massive multi-lane freeways leading out to the countryside, people would live in higher-density housing close to city centers and transit hubs, and businesses would locate there as well. You’d still have a lot of choice about where to work, you’d just get there by bike, or train, or bus, or on foot. That’s how it is in Japan, Korea and most places in Europe I’ve been.
Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by FpUser on Sunday November 22, 2020 @09:21AM (#25177642)
>"That’s how it is in Japan, Korea and most places in Europe I’ve been."

To each their own.

Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by peterwoerner on Saturday November 21, 2020 @09:39PM (#25174450)
Most public schools I have been a part of charge "optional" fees. There seems to be constant fund-raising for both extracurricular activities and general school funds as well as requests from students for classroom supplies. The bulk of the funding comes from the school taxes.
Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by URSpider94 on Sunday November 22, 2020 @03:14AM (#25175864)
Definitely, the first thing we heard when our kid started in pubic school was “public school is not free,” meaning that the parent committee expects lots of donations to offer enrichment.

That said, you should listen to the podcast “Nice White Parents.” It points out that this model of underfunding the schools and making up for it with donations is essentially letting wealthy families buy their way out of the problem while leaving disadvantaged students behind.

Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by vl on Sunday November 22, 2020 @05:01AM (#25176270)
Public education is not “free”, we pay for it with out taxes. And right now we are paying, and our children are not getting an education...
Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by Aerroon on Saturday November 21, 2020 @06:15PM (#25173465)
In a sense, every company externalizes some costs to society. At the same time, society tends to benefit from their existence more than just the service they provide. It would be very difficult to try to balance out those numbers.
Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by hnick on Sunday November 22, 2020 @03:18AM (#25175885)
Trade and economy are vital for a modern society though. If costs were instead born by the shipping companies they'd be put into the price of goods sold.

I can't help but see this as a regressive use tax in many ways, since it'll likely apply to lower value items at a higher proportion which is what poorer people would be buying. The end user pays in either case, but doing it through taxation policy allows for a measured approach.

Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by URSpider94 on Sunday November 22, 2020 @03:34AM (#25175935)
It’s a little bit regressive as you mention, but forcing the users to pay also encourages businesses to find ways to economize and thus minimize the impact of the tax on their customers. It’s also less regressive to pass along a small amount of tax in the cost of items (the portion of the cost of most things we buy made up by transportation costs is very small, and the tax is a small portion of that), than it is to burden car-less poor people with the cost of building roads that they don’t drive on.
Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by hnick on Sunday November 22, 2020 @03:46AM (#25175982)
That actually sounds sensible so maybe you're right.

Here in Sydney we just opened a tolled tunnel, and to ease congestion up above on the older commuter road all trucks must use this tunnel. I don't know all the factors but it sounds like the best option for the people, they have a choice and trucks pay their way.

Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by refurb on Saturday November 21, 2020 @06:23PM (#25173498)
Externalizing the cost of using a national transportation network. I don’t think there is any citizen who doesn’t benefit from a national transportation network. How else do they get the food they buy, clothes they wear, etc?
Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by yarcob on Sunday November 22, 2020 @01:44AM (#25175499)
Because everyone benefits more from roads that are less congested.

If everyone rode bikes or the bus 90% of the time, there would be mostly empty roads in the 10% of time that they do use a car.

If you had to pay a significant price per km in congested areas, you'd probably drive less, but it would be a nicer experience when you do drive.

Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by noizejoy on Saturday November 21, 2020 @06:07PM (#25173423)
Paying for things in more detail has many advantages, including penalizing waste and rewarding better ideas. An exception is insurance, where you try to generalize the costs of “bad luck”.
Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by austhrow743 on Saturday November 21, 2020 @05:38PM (#25173282)
Because you want to discourage use.
Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by AnthonyMouse on Saturday November 21, 2020 @08:42PM (#25174173)
But now you're making a statement which is too general.

There is no benefit to discouraging use of highways at night, or uncongested suburban/rural roads. The thing you really want to prevent is congestion.

And even that is not inherently best solved through punitive fees. If you can reduce congestion by e.g. building more housing near where people work so they don't have to commute as far, that's preferable to levying fees the drivers can't avoid because a viable alternative to a long commute isn't actually available.

Sometimes turning a four lane road into a six lane road really does resolve the congestion, even accounting for the increase in use that comes from the reduction in congestion. And then you don't gain anything by discouraging use there.

The number of cases where you actually want to discourage use is very small, to the point that they may not even really exist, given that most uses are productive (and already have to overcome the inherent cost in fuel and time). The best case for it would be something like Manhattan during rush hour, but even there you might be better off to use the carrot instead of the stick and e.g. stop charging fees for use of the subway.

Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by URSpider94 on Sunday November 22, 2020 @03:44AM (#25175971)
I don’t have good citations handy, but it’s generally accepted that the construction of the American interstate freeway system after WWII was the primary enabler of the mass exodus of the white middle class to the suburbs, and the subsequent abandonment of people of color in inner cities for several generations.

Furthermore, continuing to build more travel lanes to alleviate congestion has been shown to simply lead to more traffic. It’s a circular problem.

We are finally seeing this turn around in a very painful way in Silicon Valley. There’s no longer political will, nor is there tax revenue, to keep expanding the highways. As a result, commute times have gone up dramatically. As a further result, over the past decade, I’ve watched previously undesirable near suburbs like Sunnyvale and Santa Clara be bid up dramatically in housing price as people have realized that spending 3 hours per day in their car isn’t worth having a giant house with a giant yard in the far south suburbs like Morgan Hill and Gilroy.

Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday November 22, 2020 @10:39AM (#25178274)
> I don’t have good citations handy, but it’s generally accepted that the construction of the American interstate freeway system after WWII was the primary enabler of the mass exodus of the white middle class to the suburbs, and the subsequent abandonment of people of color in inner cities for several generations.

This is like arguing against rope because it was the primary enabler of lynchings.

> Furthermore, continuing to build more travel lanes to alleviate congestion has been shown to simply lead to more traffic. It’s a circular problem.

It isn't. What those studies are showing is that congestion suppresses demand, so if you relieve some of the congestion, some of the demand comes back. So to relieve congestion you'd need enough lanes to carry not the existing level of traffic, but the amount there would be if there wasn't any congestion suppressing it.

This is clearly demonstrated in China where they build multi-lane highways to nowhere as a jobs program and then traffic does not magically appear to fill them.

The problem is that in some places, satisfying all of the demand by only increasing the number of travel lanes would require like twenty travel lanes, which isn't ideal. But that doesn't mean you can't reduce congestion there by adding travel lanes, only that you need other solutions there too. Add a travel lane or two but not ten, build more housing closer to businesses so people don't have to commute as far, stop charging user fees for mass transit etc. By doing these things together you can alleviate congestion without needing twenty lane highways.

> We are finally seeing this turn around in a very painful way in Silicon Valley.

The problem there is totally unambiguously not "insufficient highways" and is in fact "insufficient housing" which induces those long commutes for whoever can't afford the existing housing close to the city where the jobs are (and also outrageous housing costs for the housing that is, because nobody wants that commute). Build more housing.

Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by berkes on Sunday November 22, 2020 @03:13AM (#25175860)
The amount of NOx and CO2 emission is a direct product of use, and not (or hardly) congestion.

The world doesn't heat up slower if we manage to use roads 100% during nighttime too.

Same for wear and tear.

Re:Victoria follows South Australia and imposes electric car... by AnthonyMouse on Sunday November 22, 2020 @10:08AM (#25177976)
> The amount of NOx and CO2 emission is a direct product of use, and not (or hardly) congestion.

We're talking about electric vehicles which don't have that. That issue can obviously be solved for gasoline and diesel vehicles via fuel taxes (which encourage people to buy electric vehicles).

> Same for wear and tear.

As discussed, nearly all of the wear and tear is a result of large heavy vehicles and the amount caused by passenger vehicles is negligible.