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Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by Supermancho on Friday November 20, 2020 @11:38AM (#25162062)
> building subsequent plants based on an existing design actually costs more, not less, than building the initial plant.

> if more components of the plant, or even the entire plant, could be built offsite under controlled factory conditions, such extra costs could be substantially cut.

Wait what? France builds with relative similarity and it's cheaper. The problem is with US regulation, politics and CYA hand-wringing, imo.

Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by Gwypaas on Friday November 20, 2020 @11:44AM (#25162140)
Flamanville, France:

The project was planned to involve around €3.3 billion of capital expenditure from EDF, but latest cost estimates (from 2019) are at €12.4 billion. Pierre Moscovici, president of the Court of Audit, gave a statement on 9 July 2020 concerning the release of the report on the delay costs of the Flamanville 3. The report of the Court of Audit reveals that the cost of Flamanville 3 could reach €19.1 billion when taking in account the additional charges due to the delay in construction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EPR_(nuclear_reactor)#Flamanvi...

Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by realusername on Friday November 20, 2020 @11:49AM (#25162194)
This one is a bit different though, it's the first of a kind of a new design (so count a lot of R&D there) and the original schedule was very unrealistic, not sure why anybody agreed on a timescale so short for a new design in the first place.
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by CogentHedgehog on Friday November 20, 2020 @02:40PM (#25164052)
Worth noting that Unit 3 at Olkiluoto in Finland was started before Flamanville and it hit massive cost overruns and delays as well. It was another EPR -- it's not like Flamanville was the very first build of this design, they had another to learn with.
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by cbmuser on Friday November 20, 2020 @08:47PM (#25167237)
You should also add that China started to build two EPRs after France and Finnland and they are both already operating commercially.
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by bobthepanda on Friday November 20, 2020 @09:54PM (#25167555)
They were both also late and over budget though. Less so than the two European units, but still.

https://archive.is/MT9fA#selection-2255.0-2337.266

> CGN Power, the listed unit of state-owned China General Nuclear Power, China’s largest nuclear power projects developer, has announced a 17 per cent capital increase at its Taishan nuclear project, raising concern cost overruns and commissioning delays will continue.

> The company will inject 2.94 billion yuan into its 51 per cent-held unit Taishan Nuclear Power Joint Venture, which will see the unit’s total registered capital to 28.6 billion yuan from 24.4 billion yuan, the company said in a filing to Hong Kong’s bourse late on Tuesday. Provincial government-controlled Guangdong Yudean, the province’s largest power producer, owns 19 per cent stake, and CGN’s French technology partner EDF holds 30 per cent stake.

> CGN said the capital injection serves “to enhance its financing ability so as to meet its fund requirements for engineering construction.”

> The project, which CGN said on track to become the world’s first third-generation nuclear reactor built on the European pressurised reactors (EPR) design to achieve commercial operation, was originally expected to have its first generating unit come online in December 2013 followed by the second in October 2014.

> The timetable of the two units subsequently slipped to the first and second half of this year, and further to the first and second half of next year after “comprehensive evaluation on subsequent engineering construction plan and relevant risks,” said CGN a year ago.

Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by CogentHedgehog on Friday November 20, 2020 @10:03PM (#25167588)
China's nuclear industry and the way the government interacts with it is just... very different from pretty much any other country. This is true of some of their other sectors. Yes, they can do some things incredibly quickly by more or less ramming them through at top speed using a combination of government and state-affiliated corporations. But the ways they achieve those results at speed are not necessarily transferable to other countries.

I also get a bit nervous about how fast they've scaled their nuclear sector and pumped out plants. It reminds me a bit of the big historical push the USSR did into nuclear tech -- which culminated in the Chernobyl incident because they overlooked issues they should not have in order to keep things moving fast.

A lot of technology and engineering lessons have been learned since those days... and so far I haven't heard anything specifically concerning about China's nuclear reactor fleet. But there's always going to be a little doubt in the back of my mind.

Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by dv_dt on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:16PM (#25162524)
France hasn't built any reactors of the old design in what decades?
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by manfredo on Friday November 20, 2020 @02:00PM (#25163660)
Flamanville is one of the first EPRs built by France. The bulk of its nuclear fleet were built on serial production of the same design. 34 900 MWe reactors and 20 1300 MWe reactors make up the bulk of its generation: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_France#Techni...
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by CogentHedgehog on Friday November 20, 2020 @02:15PM (#25163817)
Unit 3 at Olkiluoto in Finland was started before Flamanville and it hit massive cost overruns and delays as well. It was another EPR -- it's not like Flamanville was the very first build of this design, they had another to learn with.
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by cbmuser on Friday November 20, 2020 @08:48PM (#25167248)
Yes, and two EPRs up and running in Taishan, China, that were started after the two you mentioned.
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by IfOnlyYouKnew on Friday November 20, 2020 @11:54AM (#25162263)
"The problem is with US regulation, politics and CYA hand-wringing"

The article specifically addresses your cynicism about "regulation and politics", only they call it "safety regulations".

They found it not to be the deciding factor. Lack of construction outside the US would seem to support that conclusion or, alternatively, to accept those factors as unchanging, sort-of like the laws of nature, and to blaming democracy for all ills of society.

Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by bobthepanda on Friday November 20, 2020 @11:43AM (#25162132)
The French industry isn’t doing too well either; all the EPRs are also late and over budget and they took over Areva to bail it out.
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by Iwan-Zotow on Friday November 20, 2020 @04:49PM (#25165471)
not true

Taishan units are up and running

Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by bobthepanda on Friday November 20, 2020 @06:10PM (#25166238)
Open doesn't mean it was on time or on budget.

https://archive.is/MT9fA#selection-2255.0-2337.266

> CGN Power, the listed unit of state-owned China General Nuclear Power, China’s largest nuclear power projects developer, has announced a 17 per cent capital increase at its Taishan nuclear project, raising concern cost overruns and commissioning delays will continue.

> The company will inject 2.94 billion yuan into its 51 per cent-held unit Taishan Nuclear Power Joint Venture, which will see the unit’s total registered capital to 28.6 billion yuan from 24.4 billion yuan, the company said in a filing to Hong Kong’s bourse late on Tuesday. Provincial government-controlled Guangdong Yudean, the province’s largest power producer, owns 19 per cent stake, and CGN’s French technology partner EDF holds 30 per cent stake.

> CGN said the capital injection serves “to enhance its financing ability so as to meet its fund requirements for engineering construction.”

> The project, which CGN said on track to become the world’s first third-generation nuclear reactor built on the European pressurised reactors (EPR) design to achieve commercial operation, was originally expected to have its first generating unit come online in December 2013 followed by the second in October 2014.

> The timetable of the two units subsequently slipped to the first and second half of this year, and further to the first and second half of next year after “comprehensive evaluation on subsequent engineering construction plan and relevant risks,” said CGN a year ago.

Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by Iwan-Zotow on Sunday November 22, 2020 @12:59PM (#25179448)
Sure

but we're talking about 20% overrun, which I could call a good upfront guess

Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by fnord77 on Friday November 20, 2020 @11:49AM (#25162207)
don't forget the NIMBYs
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by mikeyouse on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:08PM (#25162429)
I don’t know how anyone can look at the state of corporate America and not be a NIMBY when it comes to a new nuclear plant... which company exists right now that you would trust to run something correctly for the next 50 years and resist the pressure to cut costs as close to the bone as possible..
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by oconnor663 on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:33PM (#25162741)
I trust airlines with my life without even thinking about it. Sometimes we even make fun of people who are afraid of flying.

Incentives make a big difference here. Ignoring everything else, airlines don't want to lose their hundred million dollar machine in an accident. And the person most directly responsible for the safety of the flight -- the pilot -- is sitting right there in the machine with the rest of us. It's a good arrangement with a long track record.

I could imagine corporate-run nuclear plants that have the same incentives as airlines. I could also imagine bad ones, run by Homer Simpson. It probably makes more sense to judge case by case.

Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by rmah on Friday November 20, 2020 @01:00PM (#25163023)
There's a story (probably highly exagerated) I heard about a nuclear power plant being built in china a while back. During construction, flaws were found and it was discovered that inspectors had been bribed to look the other way, etc. The gov ordered that all plant construction executives and crew bosses and their families had to live next to the power plant. Lots more problems were suddenly found but soon it was built and operating safely.
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by bobthepanda on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:45PM (#25162869)
Airlines in less developed countries are certainly not as safe as they are in the West.

Airlines are also different from power utilities, in that it's very easy to change airlines and not very easy to change grid operators. After Fukushima it's not like consumers could switch to a power utility other than TEPCO.

Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by mikeyouse on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:54PM (#25162961)
Yeah, I had PG&E in mind too when I said "How could you trust anyone in corporate America" -- look at their record even before their equipment burned down 10 million acres in California with the San Bruno explosion since they decided to ignore their own engineers' recommendations on maintenance intervals.
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by oconnor663 on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:52PM (#25162944)
All good points!
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by _huayra_ on Friday November 20, 2020 @01:12PM (#25163143)
I think people have a lot of suspicion and disdain for corporate ownership of infrastructure. People abhor the windmills of BigEnerCorp that "disrupt" their view, but the same sort of folks in the next town over love their energy cooperative and the ROI of their town-owned windmills or solar farm.
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by RockIslandLine on Friday November 20, 2020 @05:14PM (#25165719)
"I could imagine corporate-run nuclear plants that have the same incentives as airlines."

So how exactly do you enforce that corporate executives and their families must live on site for decades?

Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by CogentHedgehog on Friday November 20, 2020 @02:35PM (#25164000)
Counter-example: the Boeing 737 MAX
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by fnord77 on Friday November 20, 2020 @08:57PM (#25167295)
recently, boeing appears to be doing all it can to break the trust it has built up over decades.
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by CogentHedgehog on Friday November 20, 2020 @02:19PM (#25163856)
Exactly. Watts Barr in Tennessee just got a big fine from the NRC for safety violations, after trying to lie about an incident to the NRC and firing a whistleblower who reported safety issues.

https://news.yahoo.com/federal-utility-fined-900k-nuclear-21...

> In a notice dated Nov. 6, regulators noted a “substantial safety culture issue” at Watts Bar at the time of the incident. They also found that “TVA senior management and staff failed to communicate with candor, clarity, and integrity during several interactions with the NRC during the course of the inspection and investigation.”

> The incident wasn't recorded in the plant's logbook and managers later misled NRC investigators about what had happened. The shift manager told investigators he wasn't truthful with them at first because he feared that whatever he said would be relayed back to management.

> last year, TVA was ordered to rehire and pay thousands of dollars in back pay and compensation to a whistleblower who raised concerns about nuclear safety.

And then there was the nuclear corruption scandal in South Korea: https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/04/22/136020/how-greed...

And let's not forget when a nuclear company literally bribed Ohio politicians with $60M to get a $1Bn+ bailout:

https://www.cleveland.com/open/2020/07/fbi-agents-deployed-t...

Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by loeg on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:21PM (#25162584)
The Navy. Semi-serious; they’ve been operating nuclear reactors safely for decades.
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by fnord77 on Friday November 20, 2020 @09:00PM (#25167308)
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by orthecreedence on Friday November 20, 2020 @12:20PM (#25162564)
Why is this downvoted? I wouldn't trust a nuclear power plant run by a private company.
Re:Study identifies reasons for soaring nuclear plant cost o... by philipkglass on Friday November 20, 2020 @03:32PM (#25164627)
The NIMBY factor constrains where new projects get permits. It doesn't explain why permitted projects that were welcome in local communities still blew out their construction schedules and budgets. The AP1000 fiascoes at VC Summer and Vogtle weren't caused by NIMBY. Nor did NIMBY cause the problems with new European builds of EPRs.