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Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by Fnoord on Friday November 20, 2020 @08:37AM (#25160296)
> I've grown up in a period when pop culture didn't care much about cultural sensitivity.

I wonder when that was, cause pop culture has always cared about that in one way or another. I believe you are projecting.

> The most relevant point of this article is not about historical accuracy, but on the contradiction of claiming cultural sensitivity by including gender and origin diversity while totally missing the point on deeper issues.

I can't summarize this fantastic write-up, but either way, here goes...

The author goes to great lengths about how in said game the Scandinavian culture is only shown in a positive light (with the bad such as slavery and rites being avoided), whereas the Christian religion is deliberately put into a bad light. That is what the article is mainly about. Example: Christianity is shown as intolerant and hegemonic, Scandinavian the intolerance and hegemony is avoided at all costs. Slavery? Pillaging? Apparently non-existent; instead the Scandinavians colonized Saxon ground, and never took slaves, never raped women, never pillaged or set anything a-fire. Furthermore, Norse culture was very patriarchal, this game shows nothing of that either.

The gender/origin issue is minor in comparison, both in coverage as well as in how relevant the author finds it. Gender a subset of the lack of showing the patriarchy in Scandinavian culture. Origin is a bit odd, as the trade route with North-Africa is more accessible than the one to Eastern Europe and Asia whereas the races shown do not reflect this. It is you who finds the gender/origin issue 'the most relevant'; not the author, nor did the author ever imply such.

A fantasy world can be based on real history as we know it (consider, for example, the Nordic theme in World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King, or the Norsca and Warriors of Chaos in Total War: Warhammer II). If it is then inaccurate, we're OK with that, we see it as artistic freedom. This game tries to base itself directly on history. Big difference!

The author also literally claims the following:

> [...] And to be clear, that is not empowering feminism so much as virtue viewed from a society (like the Romans) which blithely assumed that men were better; it is misogyny masquerading as empowerment. And of course the game indulges in this too, as noted above.

The author does not, at all, appear to agree with your take on the matter.

The author's final chapter is titled: "Conclusion: A Love Letter to Colonialism" which again isn't your take on the matter.

As a side note, what I find funny, is that in a certain music genre, Scandinavian culture is idolized as well: metal music. Certain metal bands, such as for example Amon Amarth, exercise this practice. Coincidentally, the music is also going against the Christian religious dominance. I believe the game is made with such 'counter-culture' in mind; as the deeply religious Christians would not opt to play a Scandinavian religious person. I admit, pure speculation from my side.

Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by chungus_khan on Friday November 20, 2020 @08:55AM (#25160449)
> I wonder when that was, cause pop culture has always cared about that in one way or another. I believe you are projecting.

I see people pining for this forgotten past time a lot, and it makes me realize that none of them remember or think the same way of things like the satanic panic, moral majority, etc, let alone remember the times when people got offended over the mere suggestion of an interracial couple or a woman who didn't want to be a housewife. Oh the scandals that would occur if basically any program run today were to be broadcast then. They don't remember the Television Code or the CCA, nor did they grow up on a diet of classic Hays-code era films, dripping in extreme sensitivity.

Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by throwaway0a5e on Friday November 20, 2020 @09:33AM (#25160743)
I think that the complaint is that the goalposts have moved when they should have expanded (isn't creating a broader range of what's acceptable the point of "diversity" and similar goals?).

In those days you couldn't have (on your professionally produced, mainstream, mass market TV show) a woman who didn't want to be a housewife as a main character on your show unless that was portrayed negatively or being used for comedy. These days you can't have a woman who wants to be a housewife as a main character on your show unless that's being portrayed negatively or being poked fun at.

Por qué no los todos?

Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by chungus_khan on Friday November 20, 2020 @09:46AM (#25160881)
> These days you can't have a woman who wants to be a housewife on your show unless that's being portrayed negatively or being poked fun at.

Is that really true though? If you mean that you can't have a houswife as a character on your show that very obviously isn't true. If you mean you can't make a show where a character aspires to be a housewife, I'm not sure I understand what the narrative purpose of such a story would be. Becoming a housewife isn't really an aspirational achievement in the way having a prestigious career is, and I don't think it's a story many are really interested in, nor one that would be easy to tell in a manner that doesn't seem forced. There is certainly a lot of media (both in the past and today) where a woman aspires to romance or marry someone, and domestic fantasy is a common element in those, but that isn't really specific to becoming a housewife, and the romance is the key aspiration in those.

It also doesn't help that maintaining a family on a single income is not economically viable for most people anymore. People want stories that relate to their own fantasies.

Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by KTallguy on Friday November 20, 2020 @10:00AM (#25161029)
> If you mean you can't make a show where a character aspires to be a housewife, I'm not sure I understand what the narrative purpose of such a story would be. Becoming a housewife isn't really an aspirational achievement in the way having a prestigious career is, and I don't think it's a story many are really interested in, nor one that would be easy to tell in a manner that doesn't seem forced.

This is not a true statement for many folks out there, and there are plenty of people who can relate to stories of being in the home. I think the best answer is broadening the things that are acceptable to aspire to, not opening one door while simultaneously locking another.

Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by chungus_khan on Friday November 20, 2020 @10:24AM (#25161305)
Lots of people relate to stories about domesticity, and about being a housewife, but the actual process of becoming one fundamentally doesn't centre aspiring to be one. The work one puts into becoming a housewife isn't about working to become a housewife, it's about finding a spouse. There is a massive amount of media depicting romance, including domestic fantasies, it just isn't targeted at the same audience as many here fall under. A lot of these stories even involve said person not knowing what they want to become and choosing a domestic life out of passion for the romantic interest.
Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by gamblor956 on Friday November 20, 2020 @02:05PM (#25163726)
Becoming a housewife isn't really an aspirational achievement in the way having a prestigious career is, and I don't think it's a story many are really interested in, nor one that would be easy to tell in a manner that doesn't seem forced.

That is actually the premise of the ABC show "American Housewife" which has run for at least 5 seasons (the main character is a housewife, and does not aspire to be anything more than the best housewife she can be, because she sees it as just as fulfilling than--or even more fulfilling as-- being employed in the workforce.)

Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by throwaway894345 on Friday November 20, 2020 @10:00AM (#25161021)
Housewife characters are uncommon, and they tend to be portrayed as vapid, boring, incompetent or else otherwise their occupation is the butt of the joke (e.g., “Claire” in Modern Family who is as intelligent as any of the characters but is a low key alcoholic and eventually breaks free of her housewife occupation to become an executive at her father’s company).
Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by chungus_khan on Friday November 20, 2020 @10:30AM (#25161358)
I think this is more a case of only noticing them as housewives when it gets called to your attention. Neutral/warm depictions of housewives are incredibly common but don't grab your attention because of how ordinary they are. It doesn't exactly stand out in most people's minds when they see a caring mother figure or a loving spouse.

If you want a return to the sanitary, saccharine dom coms of the sort the Simpsons was originally a parody of, I have to vehemently disagree that there is any real desire for that.

Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by gamblor956 on Friday November 20, 2020 @02:12PM (#25163782)
Housewives as main characters are featured in most of ABC's shows, including at one point all of their Wednesday comedy block alongside Modern Family. Similarly, Fox has had housewives as main characters on most of their animated sitcoms, and with rare exceptions their occupation is not treated as a joke. On NBC's most popular show (This is Us), the lead female character is a housewife.
Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by novok on Friday November 20, 2020 @07:16PM (#25166735)
I think it's because they grew up in a leftist community where its was cool to make fun of the groups going under moral panics. Most of the moral panics came from some sort of lower / middle income religious right.

Now the moral panics are in the upper income left, and they actively try to get you fired if you trangress and all of a sudden it feels a bit restrictive in that environment.

Also social media makes average people significantly more vulnerable. Drunk comments would stay drunk environments outside of work comments, now drunk FB comments on a public group can get you fired.

Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by kop316 on Friday November 20, 2020 @01:10PM (#25163125)
Respectfully, I think you got most of it right, but incorrect on a big nuance when you said: "A fantasy world can be based on real history as we know it (consider, for example, the Nordic theme in World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King, or the Norsca and Warriors of Chaos in Total War: Warhammer II). If it is then inaccurate, we're OK with that, we see it as artistic freedom. This game tries to base itself directly on history. Big difference!"

The author very explicitly states: "As I have argued here many times, fiction is often how the public conceptualizes the past and that concept of the past shapes the decisions we make in the present."

Through that lense, I would argue that "the Nordic theme in World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King" or "Norsca and Warriors of Chaos in Total War: Warhammer II", while inaccurate, will still heavily sway perceptions on them. The artistic licenses do shape how they are percieved to the player.

Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by FooBarBizBazz on Friday November 20, 2020 @07:37PM (#25166843)
Indeed, even back in the day, the arc from Warcraft 1 to Warcraft 3 was noticeable.

In Warcraft 1 the humans were good Christian knights, healed by clerics, and the Orcs were evil devil-worshippers.

By Warcraft 3 the Orcs followed an aboriginal religion and the humans were setting up concentration camps.

Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by stjohnswarts on Friday November 20, 2020 @10:54PM (#25167749)
Sounds like warcraft 3 became more realistic towards humans then. Not much can be said about orc as there's really nothing to reference it to.
Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by Fnoord on Saturday November 21, 2020 @07:39AM (#25169371)
Knowing a little bit about Chris Metzen and his history, horde stands for the outcasts of society.
Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by BlueTemplar on Friday November 20, 2020 @04:03PM (#25164910)
> As a side note, what I find funny, is that in a certain music genre, Scandinavian culture is idolized as well: metal music. Certain metal bands, such as for example Amon Amarth, exercise this practice.

Oh yess : Norwegian Reggaeton : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0YXfeNxJJ0

> Coincidentally, the music is also going against the Christian religious dominance. I believe the game is made with such 'counter-culture' in mind; as the deeply religious Christians would not opt to play a Scandinavian religious person. I admit, pure speculation from my side.

So, Ubisoft should have maybe presented Christianism in this way ? : Valhalleluja : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9WWz95ripA

Re:Assassin’s Creed: Valhalla and the Unfortunate Implications by ivanhoe on Tuesday November 24, 2020 @05:13PM (#25203590)
> I wonder when that was, cause pop culture has always cared about that in one way or another.

Maybe they've cared of their own white-western culture sensitive issues, but not much about anybody else's, especially not about foreign cultures perceived as less civilized...