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Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by Nacdor on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:12PM (#25154402)
I think one of the root causes of this is the increasingly partisan behavior of the "mainstream" media. People are sick of having their opinions dictated to them, they're sick of media outlets that all push the same narratives 24/7 (Russiagate, anyone?), and they're desperately searching for any outlet that will objectively report "all the news that's fit to print" (as the NY Times likes to say).

In the past year we saw Andrew Sullivan leave New York Magazine[1], Bari Weiss leave The New York Times[2], Matthew Yglesias leave Vox (which he founded) [3], and Glenn Greenwald leave The Intercept (which he founded) [4]. All of them had one thing in common that Greenwald summed up well: "The same trends of repression, censorship and ideological homogeneity plaguing the national press generally have engulfed the media outlet I co-founded, culminating in censorship of my own articles."

The mainstream media has created an information vacuum, and the spread of disinformation is a direct result of that.

[1] https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/07/andrew-sullivan-see-...

[2] https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

[3] https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/11/substack-a...

[4] https://greenwald.substack.com/p/my-resignation-from-the-int...

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by atoav on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:25PM (#25154563)
I think it is more complex than that. With social media and the internet people found a virtual friend that always approves their world view. And should something happen that doesn't fit the world view a cozy way out is just google search around the corner.

And of course: the world is confusing and complex. Stuff that was previously something only crazy people would believe turned out to be true (think Snowden). Given such a world isn't it easier to just form some idea in thin air and worship it instead of admitting that you have no clue what is going on? This is what is happening here.

And social media is the perfect echo chamber to avoid the cognitive dissonance one would get when the rubber meets the road in terms of an reality check. If there are millions others that share your world view how wrong can you be?

Media isn't innocent in that sense, politics isn't innocent, social media companies and marketing people aren't innocent. They are all complicit in this. But saying something among the lines of "people go to apeshit conspiracy nonsense sites because they don't trust the media" would be a bit far fetched as well.

I think the main reason people do it is because A) they can and B) it feels better than not doing it.

The classical media is certainly part of that feeling, but certainly not the biggest part of it.

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by bananabreakfast on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:18PM (#25154481)
What in the hell is Russiagate?

If you're referring to Russia actively interfering with American elections through a pointed and state sponsored disinformation campaign that continues to this day... then that's not a narrative? That's a thing that's happening that matters and is one of the principle sources of bad actors behind this very article

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by Nacdor on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:16PM (#25155025)
It's the 2-year, $35 million investigation that didn't indict a single person for colluding with Russia to influence the election: https://theintercept.com/2019/04/18/robert-mueller-did-not-m...

> But certain facts will never go away no matter how much denial they embrace. The sweeping Mueller investigation ended with zero indictments of zero Americans for conspiring with Russia over the 2016 election. Both Donald Trump, Jr. and Jared Kushner – the key participants in the Trump Tower meeting – testified for hours and hours yet were never charged for perjury, lying or obstruction, even though Mueller proved how easily he would indict anyone who lied as part of the investigation. And this massive investigation simply did not establish any of the conspiracy theories that huge parts of the Democratic Party, the intelligence community and the U.S. media spent years encouraging the public to believe.

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by sjg007 on Friday November 20, 2020 @10:09AM (#25161135)
There were plenty of indictments and convictions: https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/breakdown-indictments-cases-...
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by trap_chateau on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:46PM (#25154765)
Adding to this, a plug for the senate intelligence committee's report on russian campaign and interference in the 2016 election: https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu...
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by nickysielicki on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:39PM (#25154706)
To play devil's advocate, Hunter Biden allegedly left his laptop at a repair shop in Delaware, and an alarming amount of former intelligence officials came out and bizarrely stated that, in spite of having no evidence of it, they believed there was Russian involvement. [1]

If that's not setting off bullshit alarm bells in your head, I don't think anything will. No, it's not reasonable to believe that Russia is responsible for someone leaving their private property at a repair shop. But people eat that garbage up because they like to hear it. So much so that it even was seriously mentioned in one of the debates. That doesn't change the fact that it makes no sense.

Republicans have not-so-fringe QAnon and Dominiongate weirdos. They're insane. Democrats have not-so-fringe Russia conspiracy theorists. They're dumb.

The only way to narrow the whole spectrum of misinformation is to call things fairly when we see them. Nothing is ever going to get solved unless people are able to critique the fringe of their own side as strongly as they critique the fringe of the other side.

[1]: https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/19/hunter-biden-story-...

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by kev_da_dev on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:28PM (#25154593)
"Russiagate", as I perceive it, refers to the four-year narrative pushed by the collective media that Donald Trump himself colluded with Russians in order to steal the 2016 election, among other things.

Taxpayers funded a multi-month, multi-millionaire special counsel to investigate these claims. Nothing came of it.

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by ttesttom on Thursday November 19, 2020 @10:57PM (#25157183)
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by kev_da_dev on Tuesday December 01, 2020 @02:40PM (#25268956)
mate why didn't Mueller arrest him then
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by thehappypm on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:22PM (#25154529)
Russiagate is basically the idea that the Trump campaign was working closely with Russia to "cheat" the 2016 election. The Mueller report showed.. Russia was messing around for sure, but the Trump campaign wasn't really involved in any meaningful way.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by _jal on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:28PM (#25154602)
That is incorrect. The Mueller report clearly showed a great deal of coordination, and could not reach accusations because of limits placed on the investigation.

A Mueller investigation with different parameters would have reached very different conclusions.

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by thehappypm on Friday November 20, 2020 @02:50PM (#25164171)
Perhaps do some research? A key takeaway of the Mueller report was that there was no collusion between Russia and the Trump campaign. I mean, here's a New York Times article, which as everyone knows, is not fond of Trump and does not hold punches: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/24/us/politics/mueller-repor...

Mueller did not exonerate Trump on the obstruction of justice charges, but that's not what this thread is about, we're talking about Russia.

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by jellicle on Friday November 20, 2020 @04:09PM (#25164978)
That is not a key takeaway of the report, which found about 140 contacts between the Trump campaign and Russian operatives.

Mueller repeatedly and specifically said he was not investigating Trump on any criminal charges since he was bound by the opinion of the DOJ that a sitting President cannot be indicted and therefore there were no charges that could be pursued, even if Trump shot someone live on TV.

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by thehappypm on Friday November 20, 2020 @04:19PM (#25165093)
That was regarding the obstruction of justice charge.

The New York Times article headline itself said "Mueller Finds No Trump-Russia Conspiracy". This is not some fringe conspiracy theory here. Don't get your news from Reddit.

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by dtho on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:45PM (#25154759)
Is it fair to assassinate someone's character by suggesting to millions of people that this someone is a criminal when they have not been found guilty in the court of law?
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by omgwtfbyobbq on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:53PM (#25154824)
Like inciting crowds to chant "Lock her up!"?
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by dtho on Friday November 20, 2020 @06:39AM (#25159504)
Yes.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by brohoolio on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:30PM (#25154616)
How many people from that campaign are felons now?
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by spacemanmatt on Thursday November 19, 2020 @08:30PM (#25156477)
To be sure, they were felons before the campaign, but now they're convicted felons.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by jellicle on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:27PM (#25154590)
On the contrary, the Mueller report showed that the Trump campaign was working quite closely with Russian actors in a wide variety of ways, and at the very top of the campaign.

https://www.justsecurity.org/63838/guide-to-the-mueller-repo...

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by thehappypm on Friday November 20, 2020 @02:51PM (#25164189)
I mean, the New York Times headline itself said "Mueller Finds No Trump-Russia Conspiracy".
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by omgwtfbyobbq on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:38PM (#25154698)
Are we reading the same report?

There was definitely meaningful involvement by the Trump campaign in Russia's efforts to undermine the 2016 election.

One example...

5. June 9, 2016 Meeting at Trump Tower

On June 9, 2016, senior representatives of the Trump Campaign met in Trump Tower with a Russian attorney expecting to receive derogatory information about Hillary Clinton from the Russian government. The meeting was proposed to Donald Trump Jr. in an email from Robert Goldstone, at the request of his then-client Emin Agalarov, the son of Russian real-estate developer Aras Agalarov. Goldstone relayed to Trump Jr. that the “Crown prosecutor of Russia . . . offered to provide the Trump Campaign with some official documents and information that would incriminate Hillary and her dealings with Russia” as “part of Russia and its government’s support for Mr. Trump.” Trump Jr. immediately responded that “if it’s what you say I love it,” and arranged the meeting through a series of emails and telephone calls.

At the same time, that wasn't enough evidence to charge most members of the Trump campaign under existing laws.

C. Russian Government Outreach and Contacts

As explained in Section IV above, the Office’s investigation uncovered evidence of numerous links (i.e., contacts) between Trump Campaign officials and individuals having or claiming to have ties to the Russian government. The Office evaluated the contacts under several sets of federal laws, including conspiracy laws and statutes governing foreign agents who operate in the United States. After considering the available evidence, the Office did not pursue charges under these statutes against any of the individuals discussed in Section IV above—with the exception of FARA charges against Paul Manafort and Richard Gates based on their activities on behalf of Ukraine.

https://www.justice.gov/storage/report.pdf

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by Nacdor on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:57PM (#25154854)
It's pretty hilarious that you picked the Trump Tower meeting as one of the most incriminating parts of the Mueller report:

> The centerpiece of the Trump/Russia conspiracy – the Trump Tower meeting – was such a dud that Jared Kushner, halfway through the meeting, texted Manafort to declare the meeting “a waste of time,” and then instructed his assistant to call him so that he could concoct a reason to leave.

https://theintercept.com/2019/04/18/robert-mueller-did-not-m...

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by omgwtfbyobbq on Thursday November 19, 2020 @05:04PM (#25154905)
I'm not stating it was incriminating, I'm stating it's evidence of the campaign's involvement with Russia.

Clearly it wasn't incriminating, no charges were brought, but that's a strawman because the comment I'm replying to was about whether the campaign was involved with Russia, not whether anyone in the campaign was convicted of anything based on their involvement.

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by lucian1900 on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:27PM (#25154584)
There’s no conclusive evidence of that.

On the other hand, there’s overwhelming proof of the US interfering in the politics of other countries, from coups to invasions. Especially in Russia in the early 90s. And several coup attempts just this year.

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by fokinsean on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:13PM (#25154423)
> People are sick of having their opinions dictated to them

I'm fairly sure my family's opinions come straight from the media.

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by dtho on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:41PM (#25154729)
That's the problem he's pointing out. The media doesn't attempt to portray reality objectively or truthfully whatsoever. They have gotten quite good at influencing our opinions without rationalizing those opinions.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by kibwen on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:20PM (#25154501)
I feel like anyone railing against "mainstream" media hasn't been paying attention for the past decade. Facebook, Reddit, etc. each command more daily eyeballs than any cable news network, and yet somehow they're not mainstream? Social networks are the overwhelming bulk of the media apparatus these days.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by dahfizz on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:49PM (#25154790)
This is a naive view. "Mainstream media" isn't just cable news, they get are all on Twitter, Facebook, Reddit, etc. They often have a large presence on these platforms and the directly influence the conversation around stories.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by Nacdor on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:26PM (#25154576)
Facebook and Reddit are not publishers of news so that comparison makes no sense.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by kibwen on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:41PM (#25154732)
That's a distinction without consequence. Your comment is about media companies "dictating" things; social media just trades the editorial desk for Facebook's opaque newsfeed algorithm, or the faceless Reddit hivemind, or Twitter's endless sea of bots. All that matters is reach, and social media has traditional media outnumbered and outgunned.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by redisman on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:15PM (#25154446)
Substack is a great development. Mostly news consumers seem to be drifting to much worse and even more partisan news "sources" if they leave the mainstream media.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by jonnycomputer on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:31PM (#25154630)
Greenwald complained that his editors wouldn't let him publish objectively false stories. No sympathy.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by KittenInABox on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:39PM (#25154711)
I don't know if Bari Weiss can be part of this. Bari Weiss had apparently been slamming her co workers in public during a company-wide meeting. If I knew my co worker was publicly insulting me on twitter while we were in a meeting together I would also call for my co worker to no longer be my co worker for contributing to a hostile workplace.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by Nacdor on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:59PM (#25154864)
Was that before or after this:

> My work and my character are openly demeaned on company-wide Slack channels where masthead editors regularly weigh in. There, some coworkers insist I need to be rooted out if this company is to be a truly “inclusive” one, while others post ax emojis next to my name.

https://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter

Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by KittenInABox on Thursday November 19, 2020 @06:08PM (#25155460)
I have no idea and the only proof is her claim there; we have proof she was publicly shittalking her co workers on her twitter, which she doesn't own up to in her resignation letter.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by friendlybus on Thursday November 19, 2020 @08:13PM (#25156388)
I don't think we can reasonably expect company people to out their own misbehaviour and resolve this conflict. We are never going to know what happened.
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by specialist on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:18PM (#25154475)
One of those things is not like the other.
[dead]
Re:Information overload helps fake news spread by pstuart on Thursday November 19, 2020 @04:25PM (#25154566)
Of course not! Bias only exists in "others".