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Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by bscphil on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:16PM (#25129171)
> they’ve demonstrated gross incompetence in privacy

Not sure I buy the example that is given here.

1. It's an issue in their browser app, not their search service.

2. It's not completely indefensible: it allows fetching favicons (potentially) much faster, since they're cached, and they promise that the favicon service is 100% anonymous anyway.

3. They responded to user feedback and switched to fetching favicons locally, so this is no longer an issue. https://github.com/duckduckgo/Android/issues/527#issuecommen...

> The search results suck! The authoritative sources for anything I want to find are almost always buried beneath 2-5 results from content scrapers and blogspam. This is also true of other search engines like Google.

This part is kinda funny because "DuckDuckGo sucks, it's just as bad as Google" is ... not the sort of complaint you normally hear about an alternative search engine, nor does it really connect with any of the normal reasons people consider alternative search engines.

That said, I agree with this point. Both DDG and Google seem to be losing the spam war, from what I can tell. And the diagnosis is a good one too: the problem with modern search engines is that they're not opinionated / biased enough!

> Crucially, I would not have it crawling the entire web from the outset. Instead, it should crawl a whitelist of domains, or “tier 1” domains. These would be the limited mainly to authoritative or high-quality sources for their respective specializations, and would be weighed upwards in search results. Pages that these sites link to would be crawled as well, and given tier 2 status, recursively up to an arbitrary N tiers.

This is, obviously, very different from the modern search engine paradigm where domains are treated neutrally at the outset, and then they "learn" weights from how often they get linked and so on. (I'm not sure whether it's possible to make these opinionated decisions in an open source way, but it seems like obviously the right way to go for higher quality results.) Some kind of logic like "For Python programming queries, docs.python.org and then StackExchange are the tier 1 sources" seems to be the kind of hard-coded information that would vastly improve my experience trying to look things up on DuckDuckGo.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by jbay808 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:34PM (#25129431)
Maybe instead of hard-coding these preferences in the search engine, or having it try to guess for you based on your search history, you can opt-in to download and apply such lists of ranking modifiers to your user profile. Those lists would be maintained by 3rd parties and users, just like eg. adblock blacklists and whitelists. For example, Python devs might maintain a list of search terms and associated urls that get boosted, including stack exchange and their own docs. "Learn python" tutorials would recommend you set up your search preferences for efficient python work, just like they recommend you set up the rest of your workflow. Japanese python devs might have their own list that boosts the official python docs and also whatever the popular local equivalent of stackexchange is in Japan, which gets recommended by the Japanese tutorials. People really into 3D printing can compile their own list for 3D printing hobbyists. You can apply and remove any number of these to your profile at a time.
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by bscphil on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:51PM (#25129650)
I like this idea! I think the biggest difficulty with it - which is also probably the most important reason that engines like Google and DDG are currently struggling to return good results - is that the search space is just so enormously large now. The advantage of the suggestion in the blog post is that you trim down the possible results to a handful of "known good" sources.

As I understand it, you'd want to continue to search the whole "unbiased" web, then apply different filters / weights on every search. I really do like the idea, but I imagine we'd be talking about an increase in compute requirements of several orders of magnitude for each search as a result.

Maybe something like this could be made a paid feature, with a certain set of reasonable filters / weights made the default.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by Spooky23 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @05:21PM (#25130701)
I disagree; the search space is shrinking as more and more stuff moves to walled gardens like Facebook and Twitter.
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by retsibsi on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @05:39PM (#25130873)
This may be a very dumb question, but could the filtering be done client-side? As in, DDG's servers do their thing as normal and return the results, then code is executed on your machine to weight/prune the results according to your preferences.

Maybe this would require too much data to be sent to the client, compared to the usual case where it only needs a page of results at a time. If so, would a compromise be viable, whereby the client receives the top X results and filters those?

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by bscphil on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @10:32PM (#25132900)
This would work if you had a blacklist of domains you didn't want to see. But the idea in the post is closer to a whitelist: the highest priority sites (tier 1) should be set manually, and anything after that should be weighted by how often it's referenced by the tier 1 sites. For a lot of searches you're going to have to pull many results to fill a page with stuff from a small handful of domains, and in fact you might not be able to get them at all. And that's before you start dealing with the weighting issue, which would require quite a bit of metadata to be sent with each request.
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by hobs on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:43PM (#25129550)
Back in the day you'd have webrings - groups of sites that linked each other in clear association.
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by visarga on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @05:33PM (#25130827)
I have had a similar idea, what you're proposing is essentially a ranking/filtering customisation. The internet is a big scene, and on this scene we have companies and their products, political parties, ad agencies and regular users. Everyone is fighting for attention, clicks. Google has control over a ranking and filtering system that covers most searches on the internet. FB and Twitter hold another ranking/filtering sweet spot for social networks.

The problem is that we have no say in ranking and filtering. I think it should be customisable both on a personal and community level. We need a way to filter out the crap and surface the good parts on all these sites. I am sure Google wouldn't like to lose control of ranking and filtering, but we can't trust a single company with such an essential function of our society, and we can't force a single editorial view on everyone.

As we have many newspapers, each with its own editorial views, we need multiple search engine curators as well.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by absolutelyrad on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @08:22PM (#25132102)
Would you pay $10/yr for this feature?
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by jbay808 on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @02:30AM (#25134080)
Unfortunately I suspect that if it were a premium feature, not enough groups would volunteer the requisite time into compiling and maintaining the site ranking lists. This sort of thing really has to become a community effort in order to scale, I think.
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by brundolf on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:37PM (#25130233)
This is a great idea. It's like a modern reboot of the old concept of curated "link lists", maintained by everyone from bloggers to Yahoo. Doing it at a meta level for search-engine domains is a really cool thought.
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by mech422 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:45PM (#25129568)
This would be awesome! I'm so tired of google ignoring what I tell it, and trying to 'guess' what I want.

I'd also love to be able to specify I want results from the last year without having to set it everytime.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by wstrange on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:46PM (#25130345)
This doesn't really seem immune from spam.

I got signed up for goodreads (book review site), and I get tons of spam. It's not quite the same as your idea, but it is a currated list. I don't know how you stop spammers from adding bogus links in the python interest list (to use an example).

This is a hard problem..

EDIT: Clarified goodreads reference!

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by vorpalhex on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @05:08PM (#25130588)
Like any other list, it depends on who maintains it. You basically want to find the correct BDFL to maintain a list, much like many awesome-* repositories operate.
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by AsyncAwait on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @03:46PM (#25129583)
This is actually a great idea and something I can see working rather well.
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by nolanhergert89 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:51PM (#25130404)
As a hack until then, I've found Google's Custom Search Engine feature to work well enough for my use cases. I just add the URLs that are "tier 1" for me. https://programmablesearchengine.google.com/cse/all
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by 867-5309 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:55PM (#25130455)
> to guess for you based on your search history, you can opt-in to download and apply such lists of ranking modifiers to your user profile

pro-privacy does not sit well with terms such as search history and user profile

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by jbay808 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @05:46PM (#25130950)
You might have misread. My proposal is an alternative to inferring user preferences based on their search history.
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by 867-5309 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @07:05PM (#25131576)
any type of profiling, opt-in or not, may be used to identify users
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by jbay808 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @08:38PM (#25132195)
I mean, hacker news can probably also identify users based on which articles they click on, and how often they jump straight to the comments. I hope they don't.

But a system such as I'm describing is probably the only one that can be entirely consistent with the two disparate requirements of fully anonymizing users, and being useful to both programmers and ophiologists studying different things called "python".

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by 867-5309 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @10:45PM (#25132973)
what you are describing is relevance based on user input (be that cookies, search history, interests, a preference for x over y) that may be used as identifying information, which vastly de-anonymises the service. if a search query is too ambiguous then it can be refined. if the user knows they want a programming language and not a snake, they can let the search engine know themselves. don't sacrifice their anonymity for perceived usefulness
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by jbay808 on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @01:41AM (#25133837)
Presumably, the most common search preference lists would be used by very large numbers of people -- for example, almost all programmers would rather see Python (language) queries over Python (snake) queries and would probably all be using whichever search preferences become the most popular and well-maintained, like "mit_cs_club.json". A subset of those would also be into anime and enable their anime search preferences (probably more particular), and some of them will also like mountaineering, pottery, and baking, and will have such preferences configured as well. Yes that might be enough to identify you (just like searching for your own name would be) but those preferences don't need to be attached to you, just your query, and you could disable or enable any of them at any time.

It would basically be like sending a search query in this form:

"Python importerror help --prefs={mit_cs_club, studioghiblifans_new, britains_best_baking_prefs, AlpineMountaineersIntl}"

If you like baking, anime, and mountaineering, it's probably convenient to leave all those active for your searches, even your purely programming-focused searches. But you could toggle some of them off if articles about "helping to protect imported mountain pythons" are interfering with your search results, or if you want to be more anonymous. If you're especially paranoid you could even throw in a bunch of random preferences that don't affect your query but do throw off attempts to profile you. You could pretty easily write a script that salts every search with a few extra random preference lists, for privacy or just for fun, and make that an additional feature. The tool doesn't need to maintain any history of your past activity to cater to your search, so I think it would be a good thing for privacy overall.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by 867-5309 on Wednesday November 18, 2020 @07:51AM (#25136166)
> Presumably, the most common search preference lists would be used by very large numbers of people

the more anonymous among us tend to opt for common IP addresses and common user agents to become the tree among the forest. adding a profile to that would, well, only add to a digital fingerprinting profile

> those preferences don't need to be attached to you, just your query

that's not how it works. preferences are by their nature personal. every transaction would have your interests and hobbies embedded, on top of metadata

> mit_cs_club, studioghiblifans_new, britains_best_baking_prefs, AlpineMountaineersIntl

you have voluntarily made yourself the birch among the ebony

> If you're especially paranoid you could even throw in a bunch of random preferences that don't affect your query but do throw off attempts to profile you

how would they not affect the query? they complement the query. or rather, unnecessarily accompany the query. your results depend on your input. it doesn't matter what colour glove you wear to pull the trigger if you bury the gun with the body

> write a script that salts every search with a few extra random preference lists, for privacy or just for fun

just the latter. fuzzing would be pointless since the engine will have already identified you by now

it sounds like an annoying browser extension at best. to label it a pro-privacy tool would be ludicrous

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by brundolf on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:34PM (#25130193)
Agreed. I think the key point here is that the web is a radically different place than it was in 1998 (when Google launched and established the search engine paradigm as we know it). Back then the quality-to-spam ratio was probably much higher, the overall size of the web was certainly much smaller (making scraping the entire thing more tractable), and there were many more self-hosted sources rather than platforms (meaning it was more necessary to rely on inter-linking, and "authoritative domains" weren't as much of a thing). The naive scraping approach was both more crucial and more effective. And in the decades since, it's been a constant war of attrition to keep that model working under more and more adversarial conditions.

So I think that stepping back and re-thinking what a search engine fundamentally is, is a great starting point for disruption.

Additionally, something the OP didn't mention is that ML technologies have progressed dramatically since 1998, and that much of that progress has been done in the open. I can't imagine that not being a force-multiplier for any upstart in this domain.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by PaulDavisThe1st on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @06:50PM (#25131453)
But the situation with authoritative domains hasn't changed much, and what "platforms" tend to be strong for answering questions? As in 1998, there are a few very good places for getting answers to certain kinds of questions. They are not facebook or twitter, ever.
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by jedberg on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:21PM (#25130020)
I think Google sort of takes into account "votes", in that they look at the last thing you clicked on from that search, and consider that the "right answer", which they then feed back into their results.

As such, they effectively have a list of "tier 1" domains.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by bscphil on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:40PM (#25130265)
I don't know if DDG does that exactly, but their help page does say this:

> Second, we measure engagement of specific events on the page (e.g. when a misspelling message is displayed, and when it is clicked). This allows us to run experiments where we can test different misspelling messages and use CTR (click through rate) to determine the message's efficacy. If you are looking at network requests, these are the ones going to the one-pixel image at improving.duckduckgo.com. These requests are anonymous and the information is used only by us to improve our products.

The Firefox network logger does show requests to this domain when I click on a link in the search results, before the page navigates away. This suggests to me they might by logging this information. To be clear, this is speculation on my part, because I haven't examined the URL parameters in detail.

In any case, I'm not sure how much this manages to improve the results, since usually I can get help with my Python query (for example) using whatever crappy blog post is first in the results, but results from the official docs or StackExchange are still probably better and should be prioritized.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by gregmac on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:38PM (#25130244)
I kind of hope they don't, or there is more to it than just that -- for example, a user coming back and clicking on something else counts as a downvote for the first item.

Any system that ranks things purely based on votes or view counts can have a feedback loop that can amplify "bad" results that happen to get near the top for whatever reason. For web search, this would encourage results that look right from the results page, even if they're not actually a good result of what the user is looking for.

An example of this would be when you're trying to find an answer to a specific question like "How do I do X when Y?". The best result I'd hope for is a page that answers the question (or a close enough question to be applicable), while the promising-looking-but-actually-bad result is a page where someone asks the exact same question but there are no answers.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by eyelidlessness on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @05:14PM (#25130645)
> Any system that ranks things purely based on votes or view counts can have a feedback loop that can amplify "bad" results that happen to get near the top for whatever reason.

I think this is a place where Google has pretty obvious algorithm problems. For example, I’m building a personal website for the first time in many years, and obviously that means I’m doing a fair bit of looking up new or forgotten webdev stuffs. It’s widely known that W3Schools is low quality/high clickbait/has a long history of gaming the SEO system. They’ve been penalized by Google’s algorithm rule changes but continue to get the top result (or even the top 3-5 results!), even with Google having a profile of my browsing habits, and knowing that I intentionally spend longer on these searches to pick a result from MDN or whatever. It seems pretty likely that W3Schools is just riding click rate to stay at the top. And it’s pathological.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by beckingz on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @05:28PM (#25130778)
Is w3schools that bad?

for some languages, W3schools is as good a reference or better than the official documentation.

And they're definitely better than most seospam.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by eyelidlessness on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @05:42PM (#25130916)
W3Schools is awful. The official documentation is hard to navigate, but W3Schools is notorious for misleading and poor quality examples and advice. MDN, caniuse, CSS Tricks and such are much better resources.

Edit: I semi-intentionally forgot to mention Stack Overflow because it’s so unpredictable in terms of quality.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by dwd on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:39PM (#25130259)
I thought DDG already crawled their own curated list of sites?

There is a DuckDuckGoBot and I think it was an interview or podcast Gabriel did a while back that he mentioned they use it for filling out gaps in the Bing API data to provide the instant answers, favicons. Their preference for the instant answers were authoritative references such as docs.python.org. This would have been a while back though.

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by bscphil on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:43PM (#25130313)
If memory serves, those crawls are only used for Instant Answers. My interpretation of the blog post is that it would be nice to have a search engine that's sort of a hybrid approach based on Instant Answers for the whole web.
Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by Silhouette on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @05:30PM (#25130798)
Some kind of logic like "For Python programming queries, docs.python.org and then StackExchange are the tier 1 sources" seems to be the kind of hard-coded information that would vastly improve my experience trying to look things up on DuckDuckGo.

The problem with this strategy is always going to be that different users will regard different sources as most desirable.

For example, it's enormously frustrating that searching for almost anything Python-related on DDG seems to return lots of random blog posts but hardly ever shows the official Python docs near the top. I don't personally think the official Python docs are ideally presented, but they're almost certainly more useful to me at that time than some random blog that happens to mention an API call I'm looking up.

On the other hand, I would gladly have an option in a search engine to hide the entire Stack Exchange network by default. The signal/noise ratio has been so bad for a long time that I would prefer to remove them from my search experience entirely rather than prioritise them. YMMV, of course. (Which is my point.)

Re:We can do better than DuckDuckGo by judge2020 on Tuesday November 17, 2020 @04:45PM (#25130336)
> and they promise that the favicon service is 100% anonymous anyway.

With that logic, Apple’s OCSP server is also 100% anonymous (which I legitimately can believe it is).