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Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by nostromo on Thursday November 12, 2020 @03:56PM (#25074884)
I’d like to see reporting on healthy years of life lost.

During the worst of the HIV epidemic, we saw people in their 30s dying left and right. Malaria kills mostly young children.

All lives are valuable and worth fighting for, but it does seem that these losses are fundamentally worse than COVID. If we would count healthy years of life lost, rather than raw number of deaths, I think that would be more apparent.

Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by umvi on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:17PM (#25075181)
This covers both your and OP's questions pretty well:

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by tsimionescu on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:02PM (#25074997)
A human life is a human life. If you start assigning values, you'll quickly go down bizarre paths.

Old people still have a right to a free and healthy life.

Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by nostromo on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:08PM (#25075075)
When I lost my grandparents in their late 80s, my family reflected mostly on what a long, happy life they had.

When I lost my sister-in-law due to an unknown brain tumor at 28, it was a catastrophic event from which her entirely family has never recovered.

To say that these deaths are equivalent doesn’t seem right to me, even though I agree we should do everything we can to preserve healthy lifespan for everyone, young and old.

Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by tsimionescu on Friday November 13, 2020 @06:02AM (#25081088)
You were probably lucky in that your grandparents died a peaceful and expected death.

When I lost my grandmother in her late 70s the day we were visiting for her birthday, to a sudden heart-attack, all my family could feel was the hollowness left behind by her absence, and thoughts of all the life events she would miss, things unsaid and so on.

Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by josephcsible on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:07PM (#25075055)
If this is what our decision-makers believe, then why isn't there a lockdown every winter to stop flu deaths?
Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by tsimionescu on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:10PM (#25075100)
Because we have grown accustomed to the flu, it spreads much less, and it kills far fewer people. People can even get vaccinated, and we try to vaccinate as many as we can every year - not an option we have with Covid19.

A new disease with unpredictable long-term effects, that kills at least twice as many people as the flu despite unprecedented preventive measures is bound to cause more alarm.

Remember that regions hit early and unprepared were carting dead people by the truck load, most notably in Northern Italy. If we didn't have lockdowns and other measures, that would have continued and escalated all over the world - we would have probably easily had 10 million or more dead just this year if we had treated this just like a flu.

Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by umvi on Thursday November 12, 2020 @04:20PM (#25075211)
> it spreads much less, and it kills far fewer people.

Over what timeframe? Novel viruses come but once per century, flu kills consistently year after year after year, always mutating to escape eradication... and the flu deaths pile up to astronomical heights over the decades

Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by tsimionescu on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:19AM (#25080214)
Covid 19 is likely here to stay forever as a seasonal outbreak, like the flu. Viruses in general don't go away unless extraordinary measures are taken. They also tend to add up - the flu kills this many people each year, Covid19 will kill an extra this many people each year.
Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by DiogenesKynikos on Thursday November 12, 2020 @05:13PM (#25075866)
CoVID-19 has already killed as many Americans as flu typically does in 10 years.

Only a relatively small percentage of Americans have gotten infected with SARS-CoV-2 yet. Without vaccination, in the space of a few years at most, CoVID-19 will kill as many people as flu does in many decades.

Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by umvi on Thursday November 12, 2020 @05:18PM (#25075940)
Source? According to CDC, flu has killed 336k over the past 9 years[0]

[0] https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2018-2019.html

Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by tsimionescu on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:22AM (#25080232)
Ok, so Covid 19 killed 60% as many people in one year as the flu in 10, and this only after huge efforts have been made to slow it down. Without the lockdowns and masks, it would have easily topped flu deaths for the decade. Much worse, if the Healthcare system gets overrun.
Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by umvi on Friday November 13, 2020 @11:14AM (#25083757)
Yeah only because it's a novel virus and there is little to no herd immunity. I'm sure flu killed even more its first year when it was novel (since we didn't know about how viruses spread). Once it is no longer novel it will be a seasonal virus likely that kills at similar rates to flu. The real question is, can we stop wearing masks once we've achieve herd immunity? Or is it worth wearing them cradle to grave to reduce seasonal deaths as well?
Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by tsimionescu on Friday November 13, 2020 @02:41PM (#25086497)
Herd immunity is something that happens when you have the majority of the population vaccinated. There's no such thing as natural herd immunity. Hopefully, the Covid19 vaccines will be able to destroy a broader variety of the SARS-CoV2 strains than the flu vaccines can.

Masks are something we will hopefully have learned to wear forever during the cold season, as they will have a measurable impact on deaths not just from seasonal Covid, but from seasonal flu as well. I believe that the majority of the population will internalize this simple hygienic practice from now on, which would be one silver lining for this pandemic. People in East Asia have learned this habit some time ago, and it has served them well.

Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by umvi on Friday November 13, 2020 @06:47PM (#25088925)
> There's no such thing as natural herd immunity.

I disagree. I just think the humans most severely vulnerable to the flu died off during the first few waves. Consider small pox. It was a novel virus for the Native Americans, who had no "natural herd immunity" and they got eviscerated by small pox. Colonists, despite not having vaccines, and despite still being able to get small pox, were not eviscerated since the virus wasn't able to spread and/or kill as well due to their natural immune systems.

What do you call this if not "natural herd immunity"? If you kill off all the weak and vulnerable, leaving only survivors and survivors' offspring who are virus-resistant... then you now have "natural herd immunity".

Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by tsimionescu on Saturday November 14, 2020 @01:38AM (#25090686)
Herd immunity has a clear meaning: people who are individually vulnerable to a disease being protected from it by virtue of everyone around them being immune.

What you're describing is simply a disease running its course and killing everyone who is not naturally immune/resistant or not strong enough to survive despite being sick. There is no herd immunity aspect. At best you could call it natural selection.

Re:Sweden Covid-19 Update by DiogenesKynikos on Friday November 13, 2020 @03:10AM (#25080160)
The US is already at 250,000 confirmed CoVID-19 deaths, with over 1000 deaths every day, and rising.