Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife “dream team”

Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by usrusr on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @09:01AM (#25045969)

The most visible group of Turkish immigrants are people whose ancestors came from underdeveloped backwaters of Turkey and who have effectively formed a bit of a conservative time capsule. When progressive urban Turks happen to come to Germany (this is rare) that group seems quite alien to them. Surely not as alien as Amish would seem to modern day Swiss or Germans (the German Turkish time capsule is much younger and clearly doesn't rule out technology consumption), but it's the same kind of disconnect.

That group is highly visible because all the others basically blend in with the natives, which creates the illusion that they are representative of all Turks. That's why pointing out successful individuals who are clear counterexamples to the antiprogressive time capsule is highly relevant. It can help natives to stop assuming that everybody with a Turkish sounding name is a time capsule victim until proven otherwise and it can inspire those at risk of growing up to be the next generation of time capsuleers.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by tinus_hn on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @08:05AM (#25045480)

It’s as relevant as a black US president. Or a female Vice President.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by cblconfederate on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @09:03AM (#25045991)

aka identity politics

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by tinus_hn on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @06:26PM (#25053501)

Here’s the story of a lady inspired by the character of lt. Uhura on the original Star Trek:

https://today.duke.edu/2013/10/maejemison

In the future there are going to be similar stories about people inspired by president Obama and Vice President Harris because these models show them how far they can go.

It’s not about identity politics, it’s about showing people they can escape the box society appears to capture them in.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by cblconfederate on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @06:29PM (#25053529)

There are plenty of successful german Turks though, to the point where such propaganda might have the reverse effect: why would anyone assume they can't escape.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by amanaplanacanal on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @10:12AM (#25046792)

It helps to counteract preconceptions and prejudices about certain groups.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by nefitty on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @06:20AM (#25044728)

I think the point is that it should be mentioned in the media in general, not specifically here on HN.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by jgehring on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @06:26AM (#25044762)

Indeed. For bad news, e.g. crime, the (German) media takes great care to mention whether suspects or convicts are immigrants or of direct immigrant descent. Attaching this information to good news is done less frequently but would be required to paint a more realistic picture.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by davrosthedalek on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @06:36AM (#25044819)

That is news to me. German police and media normally go to great length not to mention names/personal information of suspects (and victims), a crass difference to the US.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by mschuster91 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @06:46AM (#25044897)

Until 2017 this actually was a rule (not a legally binding, just the "honor code") for media, but this got changed after the AfD and other Nazis whined for years that police and media would not "tell the truth" about migrant crimes, "suppress" or "hide" them (https://www.migazin.de/2017/03/24/presserat-aendert-richtlin...).

A very sad day for our society.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by davrosthedalek on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @06:58AM (#25044980)

Indeed.

Every time the AfD is mentioned, I have to remember this: https://politicalbeauty.de/mahnmal.html, and it makes it a little bit better.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by choko on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @08:10AM (#25045526)

Are you saying that facts should be suppressed because someone might use them the wrong way? Serious question.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by mschuster91 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @08:57AM (#25045925)

Journalism should report the relevant facts to a case. And the nationality/ethnicity/skin color rarely is a relevant fact in a criminal case, with the notable exception of racist-motivated or ethnic conflict (e.g. Kurds vs Turks) crimes.

For "everyday" crimes, think of pub brawls, petty theft, robberies, sexual misconduct of all forms, the ethnicity is absolutely irrelevant and its mention by police/media is only likely to further racial hatred.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by scotty79 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @09:26AM (#25046274)

Would you like to also know if a perpetrator was left-handed or ginger or blood type A?

No. Because that doesn't matter. Just as ethnicity doesn't matter. Criminal is a criminal.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by nmfisher on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @10:00AM (#25046684)

Governments are able to choose which nationalities are allowed entry via immigration policy.

Some might find criminal representation very relevant to that policy decision. Perhaps you do not. That’s certainly your prerogative. But outright denying the relevance is absurd.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by davrosthedalek on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @11:31AM (#25047797)

So make anonymized statistics about it. The nationality of any given individual who is alleged to have committed a crime, is not relevant.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by read_if_gay_ on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @12:27PM (#25048472)

And newspapers should report on those statistics then? That’s probably a lot more explosive than reporting individual cases.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by nmfisher on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @11:44AM (#25047940)

That I agree with.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by scotty79 on Thursday November 12, 2020 @10:32AM (#25070909)

I'm not claiming it itrelevant to law enforcement. It's irrelevant to (or shoudld be irrelevant to bon-racist) news recipient.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by kreft on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @11:23AM (#25047696)

If it turns out left handed people are significantly overrepresented in crime statistics, then yes, that would be interesting to know. Either something is wrong with the system or with left handed people. This notion of withholding information from voting adults just because it doesn't further a particular social engineering agenda is repulsive to be honest.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by davrosthedalek on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @11:53AM (#25048039)

Oh come on, your argument is self defeating. If doxxing individuals would be the only way for a voter to learn "if left handed people are significantly overrepresented", you would need to make all properties of everyone public, because there could be significant overrepresentation for any property.

And if you already know that "left handed people are significantly overrepresented" from some other source, you don't have to make the information public for these cases -- you know it already. Probably from a proper statistic made by the government. Not by counting a media-reported incident also reported the person to be left-handed.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by read_if_gay_ on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @12:29PM (#25048495)

And your argument is a mix of a strawman and taking GP’s point ad absurdum. Not withholding information doesn’t equate to doxxing, and just because you can’t find out all the correlations doesn’t mean you shouldn’t even try to find any in the first place.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by refurb on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @10:04AM (#25046719)

But we're discussing an article that specifically calls out the researchers ethnicity and the fact they are immigrants.

Or are you saying we should only talk about a person's ethnicity when it's in a positive light?

Maybe this article should have just said "a German husband-and-wife dream team"?

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by mschuster91 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @10:29AM (#25047000)

> Or are you saying we should only talk about a person's ethnicity when it's in a positive light?

Yes, because integration can only work when people have role models to look up to. This is also why (even if she's as "top cop" as it can get) the appointment of Kamala Harris is so important, or Barack Obama winning in 2008 - it is a "ceiling breaker" event, it shows to people that even if one is not part of the "usual old boys club" it is possible to achieve success.

Painting ethnicity in a negative light, especially when it's totally unrelated and irrelevant, however was judged as "potentially inciting or furthering racial division" in German media codex.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by davrosthedalek on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @11:47AM (#25047974)

If they wouldn't haven given an interview, or otherwise indicated that they want the world to know, it's nobodies business which nationality they are, or that they are husband and wife. It's simple as that.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by davrosthedalek on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @08:36AM (#25045735)

Well, your personal information are facts too. Would you like them posted? As long as the crimes are only alleged, not proven, there is no question to me that the interest of the people at large is second to the privacy protection of the suspects.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by _trampeltier on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @06:51AM (#25044927)

Not personal information, but country of birth or nationality.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by davrosthedalek on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @09:19AM (#25046158)

Which is personal information. But I don't think they write it that often. The reverse has become a meme on right-wing forums: "tHeY dOn'T SaY tHere[sic] NAme so We NOw[sic] wHich RaCE iT Is".

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by arethuza on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @06:30AM (#25044785)

Fear of Turkey joining the EU was a significant factor in the Brexit campaign:

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/dominic-cummings-how-the...

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by agustif on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @07:13AM (#25045091)

And now with Turkey vs France thingy, it seems pretty unreasonable to think that turkey would really join right?

Don't member states have veto powers?

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by arethuza on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @07:19AM (#25045140)

"Turkey has been moving further away from the European Union. Turkey’s accession negotiations have therefore effectively come to a standstill and no further chapters can be considered for opening or closing and no further work towards the modernisation of the EU-Turkey Customs Union is foreseen."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accession_of_Turkey_to_the_Eur...

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by lorenzhs on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @07:12AM (#25045083)

That the initial comment was downvoted tells me that it should be mentioned more on HN, too, to be honest. It's quite disappointing to see.

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Re:Behind Pfizer's vaccine, an understated husband-and-wife ... by akie on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @06:27AM (#25044768)

Yeah it's extremely relevant. Has never been more relevant. You have the American vice-president of a thoroughly racist administration claiming credit for this vaccine on Twitter, even though it was children of migrant workers in another country who actually did the science and all of the hard work. Credit where credit is due, especially since the ones who handed society this big win are from a marginalized and often unduly criticized background.

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