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Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by chewz on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @02:30AM (#25043564)
Unfortunately Bourbakism polluted teaching of Mathematics in Europe c.a. 1960s. With visible effects. Except for Eastern Europe were it was opposed by Arnold.

> These discoveries of connections between heterogeneous mathematical objects can be compared with the discovery of the connection between electricity and magnetism in physics or with the discovery of the similarity between the east coast of America and the west coast of Africa in geology.

> The emotional significance of such discoveries for teaching is difficult to overestimate. It is they who teach us to search and find such wonderful phenomena of harmony of the Universe.

> The de-geometrisation of mathematical education and the divorce from physics sever these ties. For example, not only students but also modern algebro-geometers on the whole do not know about the Jacobi fact mentioned here: an elliptic integral of first kind expresses the time of motion along an elliptic phase curve in the corresponding Hamiltonian system.

Arnold - On teaching mathematics - V.I. Arnold, On teaching mathematics – https://www.uni-muenster.de/Physik.TP/~munsteg/arnold.html

The Arnold – Serre debate - MathOverflow – https://mathoverflow.net/questions/153604/the-arnold-serre-d...

Vladimir Arnold - Wikipedia – https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Arnold

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by amai on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @05:07AM (#25044302)
"By the way, in the 1960s I taught group theory to Moscow schoolchildren. Avoiding all the axiomatics and staying as close as possible to physics, in half a year I got to the Abel theorem on the unsolvability of a general equation of degree five in radicals (having on the way taught the pupils complex numbers, Riemann surfaces, fundamental groups and monodromy groups of algebraic functions). This course was later published by one of the audience, V. Alekseev, as the book The Abel theorem in problems." (Arnold - On teaching mathematics)

A english translation of this book is available here

https://staff.math.su.se/shapiro/Articles/AbelNew.pdf

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by Syzygies on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @08:34AM (#25045720)
I hiked with Arnold once, in New Hampshire. He at one point described walking far enough out onto a frozen lake to watch the ice crack around him, to see if the pattern matched his intuition. He was very hands-on.
Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by asdf_snar on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @10:10AM (#25046778)
> For example, not only students but also modern algebro-geometers on the whole do not know about the Jacobi fact mentioned here: an elliptic integral of first kind expresses the time of motion along an elliptic phase curve in the corresponding Hamiltonian system.

This one resonated with me. At one point I had a problem that had to do with Kahler manifolds, but I knew nothing about them and only had some worked examples using basic ideas from Hamiltonian mechanics that I learned from Arnol'd's book. In hopes of resolving my issues, I spoke to some symplectic geometers and used Hamilton-Jacobi language. They vaguely knew what I was talking about but couldn't carry out any calculations.

I once heard an anecdote about Arnol'd that he came to France and lambasted the French mathematicians on a similar basis -- for all their writing, they couldn't carry out "simple" calculations with a clear vision (as once can when one has a physics motivation). It might have been the anecdote was referring to the Serre-Arnold debate -- thanks for that link.

Of course, Arnol'd has... high standards, to put it mildly. In his book, "Problems for children from 5 to 15", he writes in the preface,

"My long experience has shown that, very frequently, dimwits falling at school behind solve them better than A-grade pupils, since – for their survival at the back of the classroom – they must permanently think more than required “for governing the whole Seville and Granada”, as Figaro used to say about himself, while A-graders cannot catch “what should be multiplied by what” in these problems. I have also noticed that five year old kids solve similar problems better than pupils spoiled by coaching, which in their turn cope with the questions better than university students used to swotting who anyway beat their professors (the worst in solving these simple problems are Nobel and Fields prize winners)."

One of the problems is to sum 1/n^2 from 1 to infty (this is for children not older than 15, remember). Not only would I be unable to do this without modern technology (like Fourier analysis), I also find it amazing that Arnold writes: "prove that the sum is pi^2/6, that is, approximately 3/2", as though the approximation were harder (or perhaps more important) than finding the exact value. To me, that small comment really underlines just how hands-on he was.

Edit: I remembered a joke.

Why did Bourbaki stop writing textbooks?

They found out Serge Lang was one person.

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by wbhart on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @03:31AM (#25043856)
That's interesting. I'd seen Arnold's work on teaching mathematics, and I'm very much aware of the dry formalism in Bourbaki books. However, I was not aware of the Arnold-Serre debate.

But the thing that really caught my eye here is your claim that there were visible effects of Bourbakism polluting mathematics.

Do you have any examples or specifics of that "visible effect". My question is a genuine one, not a challenge to what you are saying.

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by dnpp123 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @03:46AM (#25043923)
If you speak/read French, try to have a look at elementary/middle school math books from the 60's/70's in France. It was a disaster and forced a lot of kids to imagine they were bad at maths.
Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by rq1 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @03:57AM (#25043984)
I had discussion about it with Cedric Villani once and he told me that was not a disaster because of the books or the material, but the teachers were not good enough.

Eg. when teaching set theory, teachers were debating what should be a perfect representation of a set (is it an ellipse or circle... etc.?) Children were completely lost because of this.

If you don’t draw a perfect ellipse to represent a set then you had a bad mark and so on and so forth.

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by dnpp123 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @04:21AM (#25044085)
Sure but what good is an education method if the teachers don't understand it. I don't doubt that if you had a great teacher that would work, but considering how focused French education is on mathematics, this was one of the main reason why the social ladder broke.
Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by rq1 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @05:38AM (#25044487)
I understand, but on the same period, France grew a whole generation of brilliant mathematicians. I don't think that the two are completely unrelated.

There is basically two solutions: reduce the quality of the material, or teach the teachers. I tend to prefer the second.

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by dnpp123 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @06:52AM (#25044932)
> I understand, but on the same period, France grew a whole generation of brilliant mathematicians. I don't think that the two are completely unrelated.

If you could prove me that there were more brilliant mathematicians educated in France during the 60's/70's compared to other periods, I'd be interested.

Even if this is the case (which I'm not sure), at least it's pretty clear it lowered the median (whether this is good or not is another debate ;)

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by wbhart on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @04:04AM (#25044015)
But how did Bourbaki influence elementary/middle school mathematics? Bourbaki mathematics is basically at the level of graduate school. Except in countries where a graduate degree is required to teach mathematics, I can't imagine how there would even be a connection between the two worlds. Is that the case in France?

Again, I'm not disputing what you are saying either, merely trying to understand what happened.

Is it still going on in French schools today? Or was it 60's/70's only?

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by dnpp123 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @04:19AM (#25044072)
AFAIK the idea at that time was to try to apply the Bourbaky method to teach kids elementary maths - e.g. try to explain the concept of sets before kids know how to add 2 numbers (I'm caricaturing but not that much - you had to explain to kids Peano before addition..). Someone else might have a better answer for that as I'm too young to know. Wikipedia French page on 'New Math' mentions it but not in details.

> Is it still going on in French schools today? Or was it 60's/70's only?

Unless you are in a reaally elitist high school in Paris with a really old teacher, this should'nt happen nowadays.

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by radomir_cernoch on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @07:41AM (#25045314)
I'm Czech and this revolutionary method of teaching came here in the 90's, when I entered my grammar school. Probably, it had a political “east vs. west” motivation among others, shortly after the velvet revolution...

The first thing I learned in the 1st year of schools were basic concepts of set theory. We were drawing circles, ellipses and Venn diagrams (even though we didn't call them like that) filled with images of apples, plums and cherries. Teachers explained to us what an intersection, union and set differences are and we were supposed to draw items into one set, but not in another set, etc.

I recall these exercises as funny and playful. They were similar to IQ tests in the sense that the exercise is logical, slightly entertaining, but highly abstract and loosely related to the world you know.

And I think this was the main issue. The 2nd topic we learned was simple arithmetics as in standard educational systems. However, at that time, I didn't see any relationship with the concepts of set theory.

Was the system any good? Hard to say. AFAIK, it was dropped after a few years. Eventually, I obtained a PhD in computer science, so at least, the system wasn't a complete disaster for me. :-)

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by andi999 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @10:07AM (#25046753)
I think teaching sets like this totally misses the point. Finite sets are trivial (and pretty useless), so there is no use for schoolkids, it is just a waste of time.
Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by abecedarius on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @04:05PM (#25051898)
On the other hand, arithmetic for very young kids like second-graders is probably also a waste of time. If you waited till they're older (or they express a genuine interest) I expect they'd learn it quickly enough and with less chance of learning mainly to hate math.

Perhaps it made sense in ye olde days when many students would not go on to junior high.

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by andi999 on Wednesday November 11, 2020 @02:09AM (#25056171)
You mean adding and substracting numbers? Personally I think it should be taught (and is here) to first graders. Also here no kid hates math before 5th grade (overly generalizing).
Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by abecedarius on Thursday November 12, 2020 @05:34PM (#25076137)
It's nice to hear there are places that don't implicitly teach math-hate -- where is it?
Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by andi999 on Friday November 13, 2020 @01:14AM (#25079459)
My sample number might be too small (so it is probably anecdotal evidence at most), but I would say german primary schools (which is grade 1-4). To me it looks like the math hate is coming later starting somewhere in secondary school between grade 5 to 7.
Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by abecedarius on Friday November 13, 2020 @12:56PM (#25085229)
Thanks. I based my 'probably' on a few things -- it's admittedly not strong:

- There was an American school about a lifetime ago that tried that strategy, and the principal claimed it worked fine.

- A general impression that before mass education it wasn't uncommon for people who got schooling to start years older than our start, with no impression that they learned arithmetic any worse. E.g. http://www.scientiasocialis.lt/pec/files/pdf/vol57/90-101.Pi... "In general the pupils began their arithmetical instruction at 10–11 and this education prosecuted for two years."

- Piaget's picture of stages of development (in my vague understanding) suggests that arithmetic beyond a very concrete level would be developmentally unnatural for younger kids, and more natural later. Apparently Montessori schools do better on this score?

- Unschoolers sometimes reach adulthood with less understanding of math than state-schoolers, but if the average is worse, I haven't heard of it. Anecdotally they're fine.

- Hate and ignorance of math is very widespread (I've read similar claims about average French people with their substantially different school system)

- This jibes with my general experience, having gone to school, etc.

- There's not much reason to expect a claim this far from mainstream to have been carefully studied. Maybe it has been and refuted -- I just don't very much respect the status quo and so I expect there are improvements that would 'easy' except for the obstacle that it's very hard to meaningfully change the system. And this strikes me as a plausible (though unambitious) one.

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by Jraf on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @04:36AM (#25044161)
French here : As far as i remember, I've learned set, intersect, include, etc when i was 11-12 years old, in 1985-1986. Seems to be 6th Grade.
Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by posed on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @08:58AM (#25045938)
When I learned set theory and relations for the first time, I was in love with the abstractiveness of mathematics. It was so intuitive and I truly felt that I've got the grasp of fundamental principles of maths. The sad thing was, we were introduced to set theory in Grade 11(17 years old), that's too late IMO, it should be taught around Grade 4.
Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by wbhart on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @07:12AM (#25045086)
Everybody learns that at school, French or not (I certainly did in Australia). The set theory referred to here is very abstract.
Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by chewz on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @04:15AM (#25044054)
In most countries the schoolbooks had been changed to teaching about sets and stuff in the first grade. Generally more abstract or top-down approach. Old school approach was more bottom-up.

In my country I have been still learning from old schoobooks while classes below had new schoolbooks - thats why I remember that well.

Recently I have been helping 11 year old with classes (remote learning now). And my impression is that this top-down approach is still present but the schoolbook was full of practical life examples (money issues, understanding newspaper articles with pecentages and percent points etc.)

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by roi on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @12:00PM (#25048122)
Benoit Mandelbrot often complained about this style of mathematics, and how its dominance in France forced him to go to the US. See for example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNyuXKOMU5k https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9k1o2RmqVc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_jRId9PNd6A (his uncle, Szolem Mandelbrojt was a founding member of Bourbaki).
Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by chewz on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @04:22AM (#25044091)
The anectodal example in my country is the old (pre-WW2) math problems book that was used then and after war at middle education level (lycee).

Later on the problems from the book could be solved only by university students (engineering etc.) and nowadays only by math students.

This is anecdotal of course and there are still lots of bright kids eager to learn math today.

Re:The Secret Math Society Known as Nicolas Bourbaki by andi999 on Tuesday November 10, 2020 @06:49AM (#25044916)
Somehow from the link it seems Arnold didnt manage to make his point in the Arnold Serra debate, and audience thought he is ranting. i find this quite disappointing, since I think he really has a point.