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Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by eykanal on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @09:54AM (#24980120)
Just want to mention that, as a hiring manager for over ten years now, I haven't looked at a cover letter once in that entire time.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by scaryclam on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:04AM (#24980230)
You should really start reading them. Many contain valuable information about the candidate and would help you do you job more effectively. I also work as a hiring manager and would probably have discounted more than one really good hire if I'd not read the cover letter and gained context that didn't fit into their CV.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by jjav on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @08:38PM (#24985929)
Not the OP but I've also never read a cover letter. It's not that I wouldn't read one if offered, but I've never received a cover letter in 20+ years of interviewing people. Either nobody writes one or HR filters them out.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by nashashmi on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:15AM (#24980349)
Second this. Flat resumes with bulleted features are so incomplete. They don’t show personality or character. They don’t have emphasis. Just a bland list of tasks done.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by leetcrew on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:44AM (#24980654)
can you expand on this a bit? I usually try to go for the joel hiring criteria, "smart, gets stuff done". from this perspective, it's kind of hard for me to see what valuable information could be in a cover letter that shouldn't already be in the resume itself. I just want to see if they've done anything similar already and how it turned out.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by extra__tofu on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:02AM (#24980205)
That's...your loss?

Why brag about ignoring a valuable indicator that applicants spend considerable time writing?

Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by 1123581321 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:04AM (#24980226)
I didn’t see it as a brag. The idea is that the cover letter influences the hire in undesirable ways more than it provides relevant information. Think systemically removed from the hiring packet rather than gleefully deleted.

We do use the hiring letter, because the ability to write is important to us, but I understand why it might not be considered.

Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by scaryclam on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:07AM (#24980265)
This is very much counter to my experience as a hiring manager. The only time a cover letter has contributed to a negative response, the candidate stated they didn't care about the company and just wanted the money. That was also pretty much what they said in the phone screen, so yeah, not impressed. Other than that, we made some really good hires because the cover letter gave valuable context to an otherwise bland CV.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by 1123581321 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:14AM (#24980329)
I understand. As I said, we value the cover letter and use it. In this case, though, the reasoning is that the cover letter provides unwanted signals about the demographics of the candidate, and avoiding influence from those signals is considered worth not knowing the kind of valuable context you mentioned.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by watwut on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:25AM (#24980456)
It does not seem to me valuable indicator for technical position. Maybe if you are looking to fill position in marketing.

Even if you want to test communication skills, cover letter is completely unlike normal on the job communication for most of us. Cover letter shows how great you are at selling yourself. Technical person communication skills are more about clarity, ability to express complicated ideas, ability to simplify complex things for management, negotiation about deadlines etc.

Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by mdorazio on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:05AM (#24980249)
I fill probably 10 positions a year. I never ask for a cover letter, but if someone sends one I'll pretty much always look at it. I will say that I don't place much weight on the cover letter content unless it specifically highlights something relevant to the position not sufficiently covered by the resume. Usually I just look at the cover letter as a secondary confirmation that the person can write reasonably well and knows what the position is about.

However, I pretty much never read thank you/follow-up emails after an interview and don't care if candidates send them or not.

Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by ineedasername on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:04AM (#24980237)
To me a cover letter tells me if the candidate can write & organize their thoughts effectively.

It also tells me if they really did any research into their prospective employer. Especially useful when they forget to swap employers and accidentally leave in the name of another place they're applying to.

Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by nomdep on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:01AM (#24980196)
So I suppose that is also part of the culture. At companies like Basecamp or Twist, the cover letter matters way more than the CV.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by ATsch on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:05AM (#24980252)
I think this is very good and should be done more. Unless you're hiring someone to write cover letters, they're a distraction that measures an irrelevant skill and is mostly useful as a way to introduce an incredible amount of biases into the hiring process early.

See also: attaching pictures, "hobbies" section and other irrelevant personal details.

Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by salamanderman on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:27AM (#24980470)
So "culture" and team cooperation and coordination are not things you place any stock in?
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by ATsch on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:40AM (#24980605)
Team cooperation is not something a cover letter can tell you. "Culture fit" is nothing but an incredibly transparent and convienient post-hoc justification for when you know you're only excluding someone for not looking or behaving enough like you but have to find some way to word it that doesn't make you sound bad.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by SpicyLemonZest on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @11:03AM (#24980817)
Doesn't everyone expect their coworkers to behave somewhat like them? I suspect you'd be pretty unhappy if your company hired someone who went around making crass jokes all the time - I certainly would be.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by ATsch on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @11:25AM (#24981055)
In that case the problem is that you've hired someone that lacks the emotional awareness or worse doesn't care that they're making people uncomfortable with the jokes, not "bad culture fit". Whether someone cares about how their behaviour affects others definitely sounds like something that should affect a hiring decision.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by SpicyLemonZest on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @11:33AM (#24981146)
The key insight you're missing is that the concepts of emotional awareness and comfort are themselves "culture fit" standards. Different cultural groups have wildly different perspectives on how emotional awareness is properly expressed or which kinds of comfort people are entitled to. To pick a hopefully non-controversial example, there are some people who are most comfortable when they're allowed to have pink hair, and others who feel that showing up to work in pink hair reflects a lack of emotional awareness.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by ATsch on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @01:33PM (#24982507)
Thanks for this key insight, but I don't see how it's relevant.

The point, which I'm very far from the first person to bring up, is that the actual purpose of vague concepts like "culture fit" is to be a wildcard you can use to exclude anyone without having to critically examine or provide an actual reason. How you personally justify having pink hair not being a "culture fit" to yourself doesn't change anything about that. What it does change however is that you now no longer have to explain that you're not hiring someone for their hair color.

There's no need to invent hypotheticals, by the way. The people I've heard asking how they can stop getting denied for "culture fit" in interviews have one thing in common and it's being >40 years old or a woman.

Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by SpicyLemonZest on Wednesday November 04, 2020 @08:24AM (#24988760)
I agree with the first part of what you're saying. The purpose of concepts like "culture fit" is to encode the idea that human interaction can't be easily reduced to numbers and checkboxes, so people can be a bad fit for a team even if there's no specific job requirement they don't fulfil. You can go too far and end up with an exclusionary team only accepting carbon-copies of each other, certainly, but the idea that the entire concept of fitting in is fake seems too far in the opposite direction.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by salamanderman on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:24AM (#24980435)
That sounds like you're depriving yourself of information that could indicate emotional intelligence, communication skills, intent in applying, etc. I think you're only hurting yourself and your team (admittedly by an amount that is difficult to quantify). Why don't you read cover letters?
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by goatinaboat on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:26AM (#24980457)
Just want to mention that, as a hiring manager for over ten years now, I haven't looked at a cover letter once in that entire time.

Same, don’t look at blogs or Github either.

The CV/resume is the “sales brochure” to get a phone interview, I don’t look at that either once the candidate advances to in-person.

Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by Sholmesy on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:00AM (#24980185)
I find that surprising.

I've at least read the cover letters of those I'm about to interview, feels rude not to.

Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by Consultant32452 on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:47AM (#24980677)
I barely even skim the resume. I don't believe there is reliable information on anything that can be prepared in advance. I'm sure I've had false negatives, but in 10+ years of hiring I've never recommended someone be hired who wound up being bad.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by quadrifoliate on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:13AM (#24980328)
I am curious – do you also usually look more for technology-focused experience rather than a more general view of what the candidate's skills look like?

In my view, hiring manager that ignore cover letters usually also have very strong go/no-go criteria like “We won't hire anyone who doesn't have prior Java experience”, etc.

[As a candidate, I like filtering out such employers; so I'm wondering if I should play with including some kind of tracking link in my cover letter that would track if the employer had clicked on it; and filter out employers that didn't.]

Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by newsclues on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:11AM (#24980308)
Why as a hiring manager would you overlook the datapoints in the cover letter?
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by patja on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:09AM (#24980286)
I always found it helpful to have a writing sample for evaluation, especially if the position requires effective written communication skills.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by syndacks on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:31AM (#24980507)
Like a teacher who assigns homework but doesn't grade it, a lover who receives a letter and doesn't return one, or a politician who runs on an issue she don't enact -- you're a hypocrite, an unprofessional one, and if karma hasn't already paid you a visit, you are due for one soon.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by thisisnico on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:00AM (#24980182)
Cover letter is completely useless and a waste of both parties time IMO.

Look at experience. Look at skills. Do they fit the position.

If yes, interview. If no, do not interview.

The fluff around everything else is just fluff.

Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by ineedasername on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:09AM (#24980285)
It tells you if the person can't communicate beyond bullet points in a resume. It's easy to hype up achievements in previous positions. An interview will help there, but if a cover letter demonstrates difficulty communicating, that is a signal you can use to effectively filter those candidates and not waste time on an interview.
Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by slantyyz on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @10:38AM (#24980575)
> It tells you if the person can't communicate beyond bullet points in a resume.

I guess it depends a lot on the industry. Most of the cover letters I've seen when hiring are following a template or pattern gleaned from a website or book telling you how to write a cover letter.

Also, you're never 100% sure that a job seeker didn't get someone to help them write the cover letter or if it's copypasta.

Admittedly, if I was looking for a job, I'd provide a cover letter just to satisfy arbitrary expectations, but I hate writing them. All I do these days is regurgitate the list of the advertised requirements and for each item, indicate if I meet, have comparables or don't meet it. It beats having to come up with a bunch of made up platitudes about why they should hire me.

In the same vein as cover letters though, I don't put much weight on post-interview thank-you letters.

Re:Women Using Less Feminine Terms in Cover Letters Are Less... by ineedasername on Tuesday November 03, 2020 @11:18AM (#24980963)
That's why I phrased is as "can't communicate". Because a positive signal could be false, but a negative signal can probably be trusted.

And yes, I couldn't care less if the candidate gave a post-interview thank you. That's not going to influence my decision.