Perhaps this is a nitpick, but in the interest of raising awareness and diminishing harm I would like to add that not everyone who attempts suicide is in a dark place.

I have a close, immediate family member who has attempted suicide on numerous occasions. Sometimes she was in a dark place of depression and despair, for sure, but other times she was high on life and full of energy. Those times it would be a sudden urge that came over her, and not an outcome of despair.

Wouldn't one classify such sudden urges as sudden dark places then?

You could, but it's not a very helpful way to think about things.

If you think, "I want to commit suicide, therefore I must be in a dark place," it's putting the cart before the horse, for sure. Most people are under the illusion that suicidal thoughts stem from feelings of depression / sadness, and the reality is that these are three entirely different things: suicidal thoughts, depression, and sadness are three things which are often very different from each other.

So you think someone must be sad because they have depression, or they must not be depressed because they aren't sad, and these incorrect beliefs can lead to harm.

And you also think that someone who is not acting sad or depressed must not be thinking about suicide, when very often someone who has decided to commit suicide may feel very happy or liberated having made that choice.

It can be really enlightening to talk to different people who have experienced or who experience suicidal ideation, because their experiences are varied, and while suicidal ideation is considered a risk factor, it doesn't mean that you're more likely to commit suicide and the people with suicidal ideation are often reluctant to talk about it because of the stigma. Like, "I experience suicidal thoughts, and I want to talk about them, but if I talk about them, people will wrongly think I want to commit suicide, or wrongly think that I am depressed, or wrongly think I am sad, so I am unlikely to get the sympathy or help I need and it is likely that talking about it will have a negative impact on my relationships."

As a former suicide-considering person (never attempted), I sincerely believe it's worth separating the action from the desire.

We get all sorts of desires. The mind is full of inactive, dormant code. But, when we get one of them, then entertain it long enough, and the environment is just right, people most certainly will do horrible things, including killing themselves and others.

I'm not implying that it's all programmable, but more that decisions are the consequence of many variables after the initial temptation.

On this subject, how do I know that the fact that I used these services (and other mental health services) won't ever be used against me? From data abuse, to hacks (as in this article), to the questionable act of involuntary confinement, there's a lot of reasons people are scared of using these services.

From: https://www.samaritans.org/how-we-can-help/contact-samaritan...

Is this service confidential?

Yes, except for in certain situations where our safeguarding policy means we may tell someone, for example, by calling an ambulance. Read more about when we do this.

On the phone

When you call Samaritans, your number is not displayed to our volunteer. The phones we use don’t have caller display information on them.

We might ask your name, because it’s a natural question to ask in a conversation, or because of something you have said to us, but you don’t have to tell us if you prefer not to.

Via email

If you've emailed us, your email address will not be shown to the volunteer.

In person

You don’t have to tell us your name if you don’t want to. In the unlikely event that you see the Samaritan volunteer that you spoke to later on the street, the Samaritans volunteer will not acknowledge you, unless you do so first. This is to respect your privacy and the confidentiality of your visit, unless you wish to recognise it.

By Letter

We will need your name and address to reply, but to maintain confidentiality, your letter will be shredded once we have sent you our response.

This is a pretty enduring meme (in the Dawkins sense). I wonder if it has any effect at all.

You don't need to wonder. Millions [0] of people call it each year, and that doesn't happen without it being disseminated. Dissemination works.

As further evidence (albeit anecdotal) I have noticed, especially in light of prominent suicides in the last few years, that the information posted seems to be getting more attention, with, as you called it, meme-like inclusion almost everywhere and every time suicide is discussed. This has correlated with an increase in the number of calls they receive.

They have received more than 12,000,000 calls since 2005, with 8,500,000 just between 2014-2018, much faster than the increases in suicide rates.

[0] https://suicidepreventionlifeline.org/wp-content/uploads/201...

However, people who call are not necessarily people who would commit. There is little correlation between phone calls and actual progress, if not the usual « giving an impression of progress, while the problem entrenches itself. » Those may be two groups with surprisingly little overlap. I’ve called 6 numbers when I thought about it, none of them answered (turns out in France they’re all closed after 9pm, badly staffed, or reserved for teens or women), yet I didn’t commit suicide (I did commit criminal activity though, as a revenge for society not returning my call to this day, and generally society being vengeful towards men because supposed ancestors were supposedly mean to women).

People who commit have real problems that a phone call generally doesn’t solve, unless your problem is just about feelings, which is... let’s say it helps those who call for attention a lot, and who would end up with a failed attempt to call for attention, which will attract attention, but it will hide the real x5 numbers behind the scenes of the other gender who actually commits suicide when they try.

It’s time to stop with the « let’s speak about it » attitude, and start with the « let’s give you funds/education/solve your parental problems/throw the book at your boss/mandate your wife to let you see your kids/stop sidestepping you at work/fix the VA together » attitude.

Men are not an option.

You are very much mis-chracterizing the type of person who considers, attempts, or commits suicide. Many people seeking help are grasping at the last slight hope that something, anything, might make things better. Characterizing that population as "attention seeking" or "just about feeling" is an extreme insult to those honestly seeking help.

I have a certain degree of personal knowledge on this topic, and there are absolutely people who would be dead right know if they made that call... And no one picked up on the other end.

I like how you are trying to frame issue as sexism against males while also throwing around stereotypes that prevent males to seek help for their mental health problems.

Also, I don't understand why is so much anger around people who are so starving and desperate for attention. You was quite apparently looking for attention too. That you turned frustration at others does not make it less so.

During a US trip (before the extent of today's always-on mobile internet), I was unaware that 911 was the wrong number to call when you're close to suicide.

They won't call the suicide hotline for you. They won't transfer you. They won't share their number. What they'll do is send the police.

I can safely say, in retrospect, that although I survived it, it took nearly a decade to fully heal from that event. But in the mean time, I also learned (thanks to posts like these) about the Samaritans and later in the UK, they helped me get through the tougher moments of this process.

I don't know how significant the effect is, but it's non-zero. :)

A growing number of places are realizing that sending a militarized police force for mental health crises is not a good idea and turning to actual qualified people instead.

Sounds horrible. Glad to hear that you found the help you needed.

It’s my experience that such lines are impersonal, with staffers that fail to understand and humanize the caller.

I'm sorry you had a bad experience. My first Samaritans call wasn't exactly a breeze either (a lot of uhuh, sure, yeah).

I will say -- these phone lines are staffed by human beings. Even with the best of intentions, they're just that, humans. They wont always get it right.

But, when they do, it can be life changing.

I'm always grateful for the kind Samaritans lady who stayed on the phone for over an hour one night.

Even once person saved is an effect.

The problem with these lines is that you need to out yourself having mental problems. After this breach I'd be very reluctant to do this. Eg. in Germany, pseudonymous health data is centrally stored for research purposes, open to a non-specified number of research institutions.