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Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by spilehchiha on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:21PM (#24871737)
Hi HN! this is Sina, the intern who worked on this project; I would be more than happy to answer any questions here!
Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by slickrick216 on Friday October 23, 2020 @01:32PM (#24871837)
Good work really interesting read. So many possible use cases.
Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by joe_the_user on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:08PM (#24874192)
I'd view smart contracts as fundamentally unethical.

Smart contracts aren't merely ways to allow one individual or company's action to automatically trigger the actions of another. There are lots of to do that already.

To call a mechanism a "smart contract" is to say that this mechanism contains both an agreement between parties and mechanism for the enforcement of that agreement - essentially one step beyond binding arbitration to automatic arbitration, by-passing courts in more complete basis.

There's a reason that courts exist as the enforcement mechanism for contracts. There are many the terms or implications of a contract can different from what a reasonable person would expect and courts, with humans, are the machinery for preventing the multitude of ways this happens (and even these are far from perfect).

The DAO event illustrates this but even more, the real ugly will rise when smart contracts are used for all of the really abuse which normal contracts have facilitated - usury, debt-peonage, sex-trafficking and so-forth. Basically, it facilitates putting the weak at the mercy of the strong in uncontestable fashion.

I'd like to know how you can justify taking part in this.

Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by noman-land on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:16PM (#24874278)
I've always hated the term contract in this context because it's overloaded. These are mathematical contracts, not legal contracts. The underlying math enforces the outcomes.

Anyway, I think the tech is agnostic. It can be used for good or evil, just like a knife. It's just a tool.

Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by jazzyjackson on Saturday October 24, 2020 @01:14AM (#24877120)
Bear in mind some knives are designed for slicing vegetables and some knives are designed for stabbing humans, and whenever you design a tool, you are making a certain action easier to accomplish.
Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by noman-land on Saturday October 24, 2020 @09:42AM (#24879167)
I think the analog to that would be that some smart contracts can be designed to do benign things like trade cats and some can be designed to do malicious things, like assassinate someone for money.
Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by joe_the_user on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:31PM (#24874436)
Smart contract are effects that automatically happen to accounts using tokens that aspire to be currency.

So the scenario - a person works for etherium tokens (or whatever equilivalent), a person has certain number of tokens accumulated as their savings. A person violates whatever smart contract they have agreed to and they're automatically penalized, with courts or anyone else being unable to undo this - even if the contract was for, say, illegal activity. If the entire economy of any area runs on whatever crypto tokens, a person could have no choice but to agree to one of these contracts.

It's fairly unlikely to happen, admittedly, but the point is the entire exercise is a blue print for a Libertarian Party Utopia/Dystopia, depending on one's interpretation of the situation. My interpretation is extreme dystopia.

Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by syntheticcdo on Saturday October 24, 2020 @04:38PM (#24881788)
How are the courts unable to undo a smart contract? Just like with cash, a victim of fraud can still win in court versus the perpetrator, and the court can order restitution and if that's not possible, garnishment.

Just because something is digitally irreversible doesn't mean it can't be undone the traditional way.

Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by jlrubin on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:29PM (#24874405)
It's always fair to call someone out on the ethics of their work, but I don't think this is a particularly effective or positive way of engaging the creator.

See https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html for guidelines on HN comment expectations.

Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by joe_the_user on Friday October 23, 2020 @05:38PM (#24874508)
I can't see my comment violating the linked guidelines.

My comment on smart contracts is detailed and well supported.

Of course it's an ethical critique. Ethical criticism can't be "positive" in some feel-good sense. All you can say if you think X is wrong is "Don't do X, please" or "how do you justify X".

Edit: the parent said "I would be more than happy to answer any questions here" and I asked a question. Now, the unstated assumption might have been technical questions about the project. But if we were operating by smart contracts and the overt request was "any questions", then the system would have to accept the comment. Something to thing about.

Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by willberman on Saturday October 24, 2020 @12:46AM (#24877022)
I think problem is that your argument seems to come from a prior point of view, and doesn't assume good faith on the behalf of people working on smart contract problems (declaring them in whole fundamentally unethical). I would suggest that a better way to pose your point of view would be to ask, "Are there ways to mitigate the automatic triggering of actions in smart contracts?" Posing your point of view as a question like this would be more likely to foster a healthy discussion because there are certainly ways to mitigate the extent of automatic actions (multisigs etc...). And who knows, everyone might learn something as a result of the discussion!

Disclosure: I work in the cryptocurrency space and generally think hackernews doesn't know how to have productive discussions about cryptocurrency.

Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by cryptica on Friday October 23, 2020 @06:46PM (#24875135)
I disagree 100%, there is a lot of negativity in these comments and the downvotes seem to validate this.
Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by joe_the_user on Friday October 23, 2020 @08:13PM (#24875756)
I should add, because it just occurred to me, that my question was clearly answerable - if smart contracts could be done ethically.

The GP or anyone could say, "glad you asked about ethics, here is how I think you can do smart contract ethically; [insert explanation for how to do this]". I mean, "How do you justify X" is calling for an answer, right? Some things even have good justifications.

Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by 3np on Saturday October 24, 2020 @01:54AM (#24877260)
> “How do you justify X" is calling for an answer, right?

That’s not what you wrote. There’s nothing in your comment interpretable as a question, it’s a rant.

Am I right in interpreting your stance as that any form of contract resolution or arbitration outside of the legal court system is unethical?

Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by cryptica on Friday October 23, 2020 @06:38PM (#24875070)
I disagree with this 100%. Smart contracts are the most ethical contracts possible. The DAO was just poorly coded, there is nothing wrong with Ethereum itself. It's the smart contract developer's fault if they can't test their contracts properly. It doesn't facilitate abuse of any kind, this is not a good argument. Ethereum is the second most valuable cryptocurrency for a good reason.

Also, your comment was heavily downvoted, thus proving by consensus that it is incorrect.

Re:Efficient smart contract security audits with machine lea... by CryptoPunk on Friday October 23, 2020 @07:25PM (#24875476)
>>The DAO event illustrates this but even more, the real ugly will rise when smart contracts are used for all of the really abuse which normal contracts have facilitated - usury, debt-peonage, sex-trafficking and so-forth. Basically, it facilitates putting the weak at the mercy of the strong in uncontestable fashion.

If certain voluntary interactions between consenting adults with different levels of power are "abuse", according to you, then I'd argue there are far more fruitful ways of addressing the problem, that are less disruptive to non-abusive interactions, than indiscriminately forbidding people from utilitizing smart contracts to interact, or trying to discourage people from developing smart contract technology. The latter is profoundly unethical in its lack of consideration for others' rights.

As an example of one of these better ways, those in vulnerable circumstances, who could be exploited in ostensibly voluntary interactions, could be put under the guardianship of a competent authority, and have restrictions placed on them to prevent them from entering into abusive situations.

This is a more sensible approach than attempting to turn the entire world into a safe space for adults who are not capable of wielding the freedom to choose what agreements they enter into.

While on this track, you may also want to consider restricting the right of these vulnerable people on who they may vote for, as obviously the state will know better than them as to which political candidates seek to abuse them.

Just as a curiousity: what is your profession? Might you have some financial conflict of interest in the dilemma of whether people at large will be able to interact without centralized intermediaries like regulators and lawyers as acting as gatekeepers?