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Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by zdragnar on Thursday October 22, 2020 @01:54PM (#24860976)
Strange. Business owner friends of mine have taken the opposite approach over the years.

Taxes low? Start up something new, get it going. Taxes go up again? Sell it off (if they haven't already) and go back to early retirement doing whatever.

Maybe it is largely the type of business that behavior changes. Their last venture was starting up an aquaponics farm in a borderline urban / suburban area, though I haven't kept in touch and it appears to have been sold off to another family.

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by nostrademons on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:00PM (#24861056)
I think the OP is talking about investing within the business. The business is a separate legal entity with its own income, expenditures, and assets that is under the control of its owner. Assuming that you want to continue owning the business as a going concern, it makes sense to maximize expenditures (by investing in the future) and minimize profits when tax rates are high. But if you're happy entering and exiting the business as a whole, it makes sense to sell it (transferring money equal to its value to your personal balance sheet) when taxes are low and about to go up, and then just not work while taxes are high.

Inflation can put a bit of a wrinkle in this, since if you get $20M for your business and then you find that that's worth the equivalent of $2M in 5-10 years it can crimp your early retirement.

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by tonystubblebine on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:01PM (#24861084)
Exactly. Corporate taxes are an incentive for businesses investing in themselves but, as I understand it, an disincentive for investors to invest in businesses. I'm mostly just bothered by how simplistic the debate is and how most people don't even understand this detail.
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by nostrademons on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:10PM (#24861215)
Interesting. This also implies a shift from financial capital (VCs, hedge funds, private equity) to production capital (reinvested profits) when corporate tax rates go up. In the Carlota Perez model, this is the shift from the "frenzy" phase (of huge valuations, founders entering and exiting startups, bubble mentality) to the "deployment" phase (where the technology diffuses through the economy and is adopted as part of the fabric of many companies). I never thought of tax policy as helping drive that, but it seems to correspond pretty well.

My other big question is how this interacts with monetary policy. Inflation tends to preference financial capital by a.) lowering the real cost of outside credit and b.) causing dislocations within the economy that create opportunities for new startups. That could offset higher corporate taxes to some extent, while if combined with low corporate taxes it could spark a mania.

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by didibus on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:46PM (#24861766)
> but, as I understand it, an disincentive for investors to invest in businesses

I don't see this holding true. Can you explain how?

Like, yes as a personal investor you now have less to invest, because you are taxed more on your income. But of the money you have left after tax, investment is still investment. There's no other way to make money of your money then to invest it. So as long as you don't spend all the money immediately, the incentive to invest it is there.

Also, the companies you invest in will be incentivized to reinvest in themselves, thus their stock growth potential will be higher, so a good time to invest in them.

Finally, the biggest investors arn't individuals, but investment firms, and because they themselves are a company, they themselves are like all others more incentivized to reinvest into their business, thus they are more likely to want to take their profit and invest it some more, instead of cashing it out as revenue.

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:57PM (#24861913)
> I don't see this holding true. Can you explain how?

Suppose you have $40,000. You can buy some stock in a domestic corporation, or buy some stock in a foreign corporation, or put a down payment on a house, or buy a new car, or invest in government bonds, or ten other things.

If you raise the domestic corporate tax rate, option one becomes less attractive compared to all the other ones.

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by didibus on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:37PM (#24862453)
Oh I was talking about personal income tax in my previous comment.

For corporate tax rate, I think it depends if you're planning a growth investment or a dividend based one. For growth, capital tax rate shouldn't affect you at all, since you'll mostly target companies running at close to no revenue or even declaring losses, but growing very fast.

For dividend investment, it would, since the companies will have less profit post tax, but if you think about it holistically, that's like the best thing to tax. You have a well established business, that's no longer growing or doing so very slowly, and it is making excess money even after paying all its employees and expenses. It seems a very good place to take from and redistribute.

Think about the alternative sources of revenue for the government here? What could be better then that?

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:36PM (#24863037)
> For dividend investment, it would, since the companies will have less profit post tax, but if you think about it holistically, that's like the best thing to tax. You have a well established business, that's no longer growing or doing so very slowly, and it is making excess money even after paying all its employees and expenses. It seems a very good place to take from and redistribute.

There are two issues there. The first is that it's a long-term fail, because the "cash cow" stage is where investors make back their money that was invested during the growth stage in a company that wasn't then paying dividends. If you tax them away, the market value of the company crashes as soon as it hits the cash cow stage, and then who is going to invest at the growth stage when that's their ultimate outcome? So you destroy investment in new companies.

And the second is that it promotes malinvestment, because rather than paying dividends to investors who reinvest them in promising new companies, you create the incentive for the corporation to remain in the growth state indefinitely and use all of its profits to continually expand, even into markets outside of its competency. Then you get huge inefficient conglomerates, which is much as we've seen.

What you really want is to make dividends a tax deduction from corporate income tax, but still taxable to the shareholder. Then they cancel out from a government revenue perspective but you lose the perverse incentive to grow the corporation without bound.

> Think about the alternative sources of revenue for the government here? What could be better then that?

VAT actually works really well. You get to a similar result from the other side: VAT and corporate income tax are really almost the same thing, but instead of deducting dividends from corporate income tax, the corporation has to collect VAT but there is no income tax on the dividends. And it has the further advantage that it's paid to the jurisdiction of final sale rather than wherever a multinational corporation contrives its "profits" to be declared.

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by thaumasiotes on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:20PM (#24861369)
> But if you're happy entering and exiting the business as a whole, it makes sense to sell it (transferring money equal to its value to your personal balance sheet) when taxes are low and about to go up, and then just not work while taxes are high.

Not quite. The fact that taxes are about to go up has already taken a huge chunk out of the sale value of the business. You want to sell it when taxes are low and not about to go up.

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by zdragnar on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:27PM (#24861463)
Ah yes, I did miss that, thank you.
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by jakelazaroff on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:01PM (#24861075)
> Taxes low? Start up something new, get it going. Taxes go up again? Sell it off (if they haven't already) and go back to early retirement doing whatever.

Sure — if you're already wealthy enough to get by without any income, that might make sense. But for most business owners the alternative is "work for someone else", not "return to early retirement".

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by nickff on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:31PM (#24861516)
Well, you have to remember that taxes affect the expected outcome, as they reduce the upside of a positive outcome. Taxes do not mitigate the losses from a failure, and most people do not have the resources to sustain failures (without severe negative consequences).

By reducing the expected outcome of a new venture, taxes discourage marginal entrepreneurs from starting businesses.

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by jakelazaroff on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:00PM (#24861957)
OP's point is that corporate taxes don't work like that. As a business owner, you can avoid taxes by reinvesting in your business, capturing the positive outcome by way of valuation. If corporate taxes are lower, owners are incentivized to extract profits rather than reinvesting them.
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by nickff on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:51PM (#24862599)
Well, OP is very bad at finance, and his points only apply to certain investments. For instance, most jurisdictions treat capital equipment as retained earnings (it gets more complicated when you get to devaluation and re-sale, but those only matter if the business survives).
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by danvoell on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:11PM (#24861243)
Disagree. Agree with 100% with OP. Taxes are high, reinvest in your company. Taxes are low, transfer wealth to yourself. As an aside, just to make some peoples blood flow perk up. In 2020, if you have paid any taxes in the last 5 years, you can expense up the wazoo, and carryback taxes. See cares act. In theory this nets out 5 years of no actual company taxes being paid.
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by Dylan16807 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:00PM (#24861073)
If it's easy to sell the business off then there must be plenty of buyers. Which sounds to me like a good indicator that their response isn't a strong majority.
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:02PM (#24861976)
There is always going to be someone who will buy your business so they can sell your trucks and equipment and real estate.
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by Dylan16807 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:41PM (#24862488)
I'm assuming they got a reasonable price, because they could easily do that themselves!
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday October 22, 2020 @04:39PM (#24863069)
But that's work, and might be done more efficiently by someone in the business of doing that, who has contacts with potential buyers or is selling off the properties of multiple different companies etc.
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by vkou on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:14PM (#24861275)
> Taxes low? Start up something new, get it going. Taxes go up again? Sell it off (if they haven't already) and go back to early retirement doing whatever.

Sure, they may feel that way. But the person who bought the business off them is still incentivized to behave in the way that the GP post describes.

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by majormajor on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:20PM (#24861371)
Where have taxes been oscillating so much that you've seen multiple cycles of this?
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by dumbfoundded on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:03PM (#24861112)
I don't understand the logic. If corporate taxes are high but capital gains are low, that may make sense. In a general sense, you spend money to avoid showing profit.
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by bilbo0s on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:01PM (#24861080)
That must be business specific. At first blush, selling when taxes go up sounds like a good way to maximize your losses. But I'm in the tech industry. So aquaponics must be significantly different.
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by throwaway2048 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:00PM (#24861067)
When have taxes been "going up again" exactly.
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by zdragnar on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:29PM (#24861495)
State and local taxes mostly.
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by question000 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:39PM (#24861657)
Yeah citation needed, other then tariffs taxes have only gone down in the past 30 years...
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by AnthonyMouse on Thursday October 22, 2020 @03:05PM (#24862011)
Federal receipts as a percentage of GDP haven't meaningfully changed since WWII. (Which means that they've only gone up in real dollars per capita, because GDP per capita has increased.)
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by question000 on Thursday October 22, 2020 @11:23PM (#24865758)
Yeah so taxes have gone down. If you measure taxes with real metrics they've gone down to their lowest level ever.
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by AnthonyMouse on Friday October 23, 2020 @12:56PM (#24871474)
What are you talking about? As a percentage of GDP, federal taxes have been the same since the 1940s. But real GDP per capita has increased, so real taxes per capita have increased.

And before the 1940s, federal taxes were dramatically lower.

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by PrinceKropotkin on Thursday October 22, 2020 @01:59PM (#24861044)
Federal taxes have been going down my whole life (born 1990 in the US). What era/region are you referring to where taxes go up?
Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by zdragnar on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:31PM (#24861517)
Think state and local taxes. Depending on where you live and the type of business you run, they can add up quickly.

Also, the people I am speaking about were most definitely born before the 90's. More like 50's or 60's.

Re:Media Owned by Wealthy Are Quick to Tell You Wealth Taxes... by brewdad on Thursday October 22, 2020 @02:36PM (#24861606)
State and local taxes have been going up in many places. Often in response to decreased federal support.