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Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by cblconfederate on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @12:38PM (#24839444)
> that's evidence of phone manufacturers using their power in one market (phone sales) to extract cash out of another (search/ads).

That's an example of how competition is supposed to work. Phone makers sell their audience to the highest bidder. There's no shortage of phone makers. The issue is that google bought them all.

Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by lotsofpulp on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @01:05PM (#24839804)
The issue is the near zero marginal cost of software makes it easy to dominate entire lines business. Technology itself allows businesses to become huge because once they have a solution, they can implement it at near zero cost everywhere and so competitors can’t really compete. Like Walmart/target/Costco versus little Main Street stores, or Home Depot/Lowe’s versus independent hardware stores, etc.

Smaller operators will have high marginal costs and higher prices, and will never be able to compete with bigger operations that can utilize software and other technology to offer the absolute lowest prices.

Although, in other businesses like retail, this results in single digit profit margins at best, whereas in software, due to the minimal labor needed and protections of copyright and obfuscation and network effects, the tech companies can maintain much bigger profit margins.

Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by cblconfederate on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @01:11PM (#24839873)
Yeah indeed the margins are high. In the case of google/FB, they are so high, that paying back users with "free services" doesn't cut it anymore. Even the cost of running those free services has gone way down. At this point users shouldbe getting paid for having their data used. That way, a potential competitor could outright buy the users directly (instead of paying FB/Google for advertising to acquire users). Unfortunately there's no legal framework for that yet.

No other industry except perhaps finance has the potential to cheaply scale as IT. I wonder what antimonopoly actions have been in finance in the past (finance seems to have been a lot more regulated since forever)

Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by paulryanrogers on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @06:32PM (#24842985)
Bing does pay users to use its search. Though the pay out is quite modest at about $1.50 a month, in gift cards.
Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by cblconfederate on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @03:49AM (#24845645)
Thats actually great. pity it s not so effective.
Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by DoreenMichele on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @03:52AM (#24845658)
You can actually make closer to $10/month in gift cards via Bing. No clue where the buck fifty figure came from in the GP.
Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by paulryanrogers on Wednesday October 21, 2020 @11:54PM (#24854716)
Maybe my math was off but it's about 50 points a day and they slashed the point per penny ratio from 1:1 to 10:1.
Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by DoreenMichele on Thursday October 22, 2020 @12:14AM (#24854815)
Maybe I am all special or something. For me, it is 300 points or more per day.

Yes, a few years back they changed the points ratio on that end. It used to take about 500 points to get a $5 gift card and now it is 5250 points.

But they also fiddled with things on the other end.

At least for me. Maybe Bill Gates likes me or something and told his people "Make sure that pathetic homeless woman can earn $10 per month as my generous gift to her."

I earn a $5 gift card about once every two weeks-ish. I'm poor enough that matters to me, so it is something I am very aware of. That $5 gift card is sometimes still all the money I have for the day, though I'm less desperately poor than when I was homeless.

I don't know what else to tell you. Your info sounds out of date to me, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by paulryanrogers on Thursday October 22, 2020 @11:52AM (#24859342)
Maybe you are using Bing on desktop, mobile (iOS), with their extension, making Edge your default browser, and doing all daily bonus activities? So altogether it's selling your info and some of your attention.

I was just doing it passively on one computer without extensions.

Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by jariel on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @02:29PM (#24840783)
Yes, exactly.

The 'anti trust' in this situation would be Google using it's own dominance over Chrome and Android to 'unfairly' promote it's own products.

The most unhealthy thing in these systems is the 'value chain creep' that allows monopoly in one area, to be leveraged into other areas.

Imagine if you owned all the real estate in the state and you had a cracker factory. Hey, just charge your cracker-making competitors 2x the rent. Nobody can make crackers but you.

Or you own all the railways and charge your Oil pumping competitors more to transport Oil - you have an Oil monopoly.

Chrome is not a 'money losing product' - it's absolutely one of the most important products in Google's portfolio - the surpluses are yielded elsewhere, in Search. Arguably same for Android.

If there were an 'anti trust' case it would be to separate Search/Chrome/Android/Cloud in the similar vein that Microsoft would ostensibly be separated from any app software.

Amazon uses AWS surpluses to 'dump' on commercial distribution which is another weird one.

If there is a case to concern over monopoly, it's those.

Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by visarga on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @02:49PM (#24840990)
You could split Google in Search/Chrome/Android/Cloud, and that would help in reducing they monopoly, but if there is one thing I could change it would be to decouple ranking, filtering and targeting from the rest, and open them up.

There should be multiple rankers on top of the index, users should be able to choose and create new rankers. Same for filtering - what gets hidden/censured, put the power back to the users, let them select their filter lists. Instead of one true ranking and filtering, let users customise it as they like.

Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by jariel on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @03:40PM (#24841557)
That's a neat idea, and it might help - but it's not the kind of problem governments would chose to solve.

Or put another way, governments would chose to intervene by helping to create more 'competition' - which creates product variations approximating true market needs - as opposed to trying to 'legislate features'. 'Feature lists today' but something else tommorow. If the market is healthy, it will move in the direction of value, is the idea.

Governments can also help by promoting and supporting standards.

Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by criddell on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @03:55PM (#24841723)
I always thought YouTube should be the first thing that is split from Google.
Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by sarah180 on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @03:31PM (#24841448)
Spidering and building an index is relatively easy. It's not the barrier to creating a search engine, and I don't think you'd find that Microsoft's index is materially smaller than Google's. The hard part is figuring out how to turn that content into relevant results.
Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by Grimm1 on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @04:11PM (#24841880)
Only 2 companies in the US have an independent English based index with the contents of the entire web. Granted, the sheer volume of data is a barrier to making the index but removing that, only 4 US companies have crawled the entire internet. I'm going to have to disagree with you on that one. To write a crawler capable of the scale and timeliness to crawl the entire web in a week or two requires some pretty solid engineering. I don't however disagree that building a good search is also difficult.
Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by sarah180 on Friday October 30, 2020 @01:57PM (#24945023)
Google and Microsoft were not the first web spiders.

A famous example, Yahoo!, didn't walk away from search and partner with Microsoft because of the difficulty of building an index. They did it because it was going to cost billions per year to try to keep up with Google in producing results.

I'm not arguing there's no work to do in building an index, but the problems of crawling and indexing can be solved by cash. They're a moat against small challengers, but not against well capitalized ones. Ranking and filtering require lots of research and tuning. This is the moat against even the well capitalized.

Put another way: do you really disagree that Google would still easily dominate search based on result quality even if small startups got access to their index data?

Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by treis on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @01:52PM (#24840351)
That's actually the opposite of how it's supposed to work. You're not supposed to be able to use your dominance in one market (cell phone manufacturing) to unfairly compete in another (search).
Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by thaumasiotes on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @03:27PM (#24841412)
>>> that's evidence of phone manufacturers using their power in one market (phone sales) to extract cash out of another (search/ads).

>> That's an example of how competition is supposed to work. Phone makers sell their audience to the highest bidder.

> That's actually the opposite of how it's supposed to work. You're not supposed to be able to use your dominance in one market (cell phone manufacturing) to unfairly compete in another (search).

If you read the comment in question, there is no suggestion that the cell phone manufacturers are competing in the search market. They're taxing it, or selling to it.

So.... what are you trying to say?

Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by cblconfederate on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @02:05PM (#24840512)
what dominance?
Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by treis on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @02:26PM (#24840742)
Samsung and Apple control 75% of the market in the US.
Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by cblconfederate on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @02:29PM (#24840784)
Apple 40%, samsung 25% , LG 10% in the US

Apple 25%, Samsung 34%, Huawei 17%, Xiaomi 10% in Europe

Sounds pretty fine for a market with healthy competition.

Really hard to call any of them a monopoly.

Google® has 94+% of mobile search in both US and EU!

Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by romanoderoma on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @06:07PM (#24842819)
> Apple 25%, Samsung 34%, Huawei 17%, Xiaomi 10% in Europe

Apple gets 11 billions/year to use Google as the default search engine

The remaining 61% (Samsung+Huawei+Xiaomi) is Android that means Google

Xiaomi defaults to Baidu in China, for example, but everywhere else, where the CPC has no direct control over the wires, they use Google because Google money is good even in China

Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by srtjstjsj on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @02:24PM (#24840715)
Exclusive control on the one phone each user has.
Re:U.S. Accuses Google of Illegally Protecting Monopoly by cblconfederate on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @02:26PM (#24840743)
that's kind of ridiculous, there is no dominant phone maker. Also a lot of ppl have multiple phones/tablets