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Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by keiferski on Monday October 19, 2020 @05:46AM (#24824755)
Just thinking out loud here:

I generally agree with this take, but lately I’ve actually been considering the opposite: that the two-party system is the only thing truly holding the country together as a union. The two party system has two consequences: one, making the federal government more amenable to bottom-up change; and two, by making fringe movements morph themselves to fit into the federal structure, rather than simply exit and secede.

As an example, imagine that there were a “West Coast” party which had control over California, Oregon and Washington. In a multiparty system, what incentivizes them from not just declaring independence? At least by forcing them into Democrats or Republicans, they become unified with the rest of their party country-wide.

Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by freeone3000 on Monday October 19, 2020 @06:37AM (#24825010)
I'm sure Brexit is going to be a cautionary tale for decades to come on the risks of exiting a well-established union in favor of sticking out on your own.

And there's no unity in the party, either. A California democrat could have more in common with a Missouri republican than his same-party counterpart. The democratic platform this year includes a number of promises that the presidential candidate does not agree with. The republicans did not publish a platform this year. It's essentially a directional signal more than any concrete unifying measure, a party-for-all-people-except-the-ones-we're-against.

If the democrats and the republicans are supposedly holding the union together, they're doing an absolutely awful job at it.

Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by lki876 on Monday October 19, 2020 @07:04AM (#24825157)
> I'm sure Brexit is going to be a cautionary tale for decades to come on the risks of exiting a well-established union in favor of sticking out on your own.

not being part of the Union != not cooperating

(although currently the EU is attempting to block all cooperation outside the bounds of the Union in an effort to keep the UK practically a member, but without voting rights)

Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by js8 on Monday October 19, 2020 @06:42AM (#24825038)
> lately I’ve actually been considering the opposite: that the two-party system is the only thing truly holding the country together as a union. The two party system has two consequences: one, making the federal government more amenable to bottom-up change; and two, by making fringe movements morph themselves to fit into the federal structure, rather than simply exit and secede.

I don't understand what evidence has led you to these conclusions.

Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by keiferski on Monday October 19, 2020 @06:59AM (#24825121)
Can you clarify what you don’t understand?

It seems clear to me that both Trump and Sanders (outsiders / fringe movements) have had an immense impact on their respective parties, far more than they would have with a separate political party.

To use another example: the two party system ensures that everyone is in the same room and has to use one of two microphones to speak. Since there are limitations, everyone has to compromise: the establishment and the newcomers.

A multiparty system lets everyone have a microphone (which drowns out all the voices) or lets you simply go to a different room. Both don’t require much compromise and I don’t see either as effective for maintaining the union.

Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by js8 on Monday October 19, 2020 @07:19AM (#24825262)
I am big Sanders fan, but I don't see his impact being very strong on the democratic party. But regardless, even if he had an impact, this doesn't tell you anything about your assertion.

I suspect Sanders would have higher impact in a multi-party system, because apparently there is a group of maybe 30% of Americans who would be his fans and could vote for a progressive party under his leadership.

What I would really like to see is a comparison of the political systems, across different countries perhaps. To take an issue and compare how it was pushed through the different systems. I can't help it but today, EU seems more progressive (in the sense of trying to make life of citizens better) than the U.S. (and UK).

Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by keiferski on Monday October 19, 2020 @07:24AM (#24825292)
> maybe 30% of Americans who would be his fans and could vote for a progressive party under his leadership.

That’s where I disagree. I don’t think the percentage is anywhere near that high. Instead, I’d say that by latching onto the Democratic Party apparatus, his ideas have become far more popular and relevant in the party (and subsequently the country) than if he was running the Green/Libertarian party equivalent.

Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by js8 on Monday October 19, 2020 @10:28AM (#24826674)
Again, based on what evidence? If you ask about specific Sanders' policies, routinely more than half of Americans agree with them (like universal healthcare, green new deal, economic support in dealing with COVID,...). So I think this new platform could have large support - except people are worried that nobody would vote for it. (But the problems with American voting system go far beyond that - voter suppression, gerrymandering, delegates, bribery of the supreme court; the whole system can only be considered democratic under a very antiquated definition.)

In the 2nd sentence, you're assuming exactly the conditions of the two party system. In Europe, new parties (like Greens or Pirates) were successfully able to bring new issues to the traditional political divide.

Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by WindyCityBrew on Monday October 19, 2020 @06:35AM (#24824997)
I think you run a much bigger risk of a "West Coast" party in the FPTP system (looking at SNP in the UK).

In a proportional system, California and the west coast is not pure blue or liberal or some new "independence party". Without even looking at numbers I'm sure California alone has as many or more conservative leaning voters than Wyoming, Alaska, Montana, Idaho, and the Dakotas combined, we just never see it thanks to our antiquated setup.

Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by lki876 on Monday October 19, 2020 @07:02AM (#24825142)
I think this is a good argument. Any large nation has come together due to some sort of central leadership and not due to everyone getting things their way.
Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by pjc50 on Monday October 19, 2020 @06:55AM (#24825098)
Isn't the country already heavily divided into "blue states" and "red states"? Especially ones where the entrenched party can gerrymander their way to permanence?

But I'm not sure why you think having more parties would make them more regionally split, they could (and arguably "should") be more interest and policy based, but still nationwide.

Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by Dirlewanger on Monday October 19, 2020 @07:12AM (#24825215)
>what incentivizes them from not just declaring independence?

The federal government invading and re-establishing control, which they would be able to do with incredible ease.

Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by wffurr on Monday October 19, 2020 @11:10AM (#24827050)
I don't think it's that simple for a whole host of reasons.
Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by lki876 on Monday October 19, 2020 @07:00AM (#24825133)
Is it really a two party system though? There are two major parties, but afaik anyone can start a party. This means two parties dominate, but that's actually the same in most countries in Europe. There are many parties but for most of the 1900s you'd get two large parties and a large number of very small ones. In more recent times some of the smaller parties have grown large enough that parties group together in order to secure a majority. But this means that although there are many parties, there are still only two sides (practically) to chose from.
Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by fuzxi on Monday October 19, 2020 @04:16PM (#24830474)
>Is it really a two party system though?

>But this means that although there are many parties, there are still only two sides (practically) to chose from.

I believe you've answered your own question.

Re:Party Line – 1:1 chat across the political spectrum by lki876 on Tuesday October 20, 2020 @03:25AM (#24834696)
> I believe you've answered your own question.

two party system != there are two parties

the system != the current situation