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Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by nemo44x on Thursday October 15, 2020 @04:54PM (#24793774)
Speech is considered violence by some people. It has been this way since the late 80's but it was confined to certain subcultures that weren't taken too seriously. But they have taken over certain institutions, like the university (and increasingly big-tech), and own that platform and teach this as esteemed fact rather than an opinion.

And it's dangerous because when you equate speech with violence then how far are we from responding with a so called violent act with actual violence?

One thing they've gotten right is that discourses (how we talk about things) does in fact have a lot of power. So controlling discourses means you consolidate power. When you control how we talk about things then you can control what we talk about. When you control that, then you control how people think about things and you've now successfully won the culture and therefore seized actual, real power. Like being able to use a small minority of corporate activists to pressure a company into viewing certain content as violent or "problematic" and other content as orthodox and therefore appropriate to "platform".

This is how the church worked in the West for years, how it still does in certain places (Saudi Arabia) - by using dogma to determine what is right and wrong. To become the sole arbiter on what is knowledge and what is blasphemy and therefore the authority to discipline and punish.

This is where we are.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by nostromo on Thursday October 15, 2020 @05:16PM (#24794104)
> But they have taken over certain institutions, like the university (and increasingly big-tech)

And the media, which is increasingly opposed to free speech.

Today we're seeing journalists talk about how other journalists should be banned from the public square by powerful corporations. They seemingly aren't bright enough to pause and wonder if this will ever be used against them. And this is being done under the banner of progressivism.

There are so many layers of irony here.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by nemo44x on Thursday October 15, 2020 @05:57PM (#24794604)
> And this is being done under the banner of progressivism

I think it's a very confusing time. A lot of people want to be "good people". They don't understand how the definitions of words have changed and what they're really signing up for. "Anti-racisim" sounds great - what reasonable, moral person wants to be racist? But you begin to read the text and you start to see it isn't what you think it is. That it isn't anything like what we've been working towards in terms of civil rights and equality.

I don't think "Progressivism" is the right word. There's not a good name for this philosophy yet other than derogative terms like "woke". Social Justice maybe but I find it unjust. I've seen "therapeutic totalitarianism" as one candidate.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by arminiusreturns on Thursday October 15, 2020 @08:22PM (#24796003)
Its authoritarianism. One thing that frustrates me so much as an independent, is the refusal of even very intelligent people to acknowledge the y-axis of the political spectrum. People accuse the left of going right while the right goes far right, but that's not it! They are both going "up"!
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by joe_the_user on Thursday October 15, 2020 @08:15PM (#24795960)
There's still a lot of actual racist violence by the police in this country. And there's a situation where municipal governments essentially have no power to actually stop out of control cops.

But there are lots of people who want to do something but aren't going to dive full tilt into actually challenging the serious problematics of a violent police force. So there's a huge market for "do something small" which involves challenging fairly petty expressions of racism.

Basically, on "the left" and "the right" you have experts taking people's real grievances and turning them into "feel good" symbology. The idiocy of the social signaling is annoying but the way the actual grievances go unaddressed is a considerably worse problem.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by themgt on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:46PM (#24795173)
Bari Weiss wrote in Tablet yesterday (before this current hullaballoo had begun) about this[1]. I think "successor ideology" is an apt if awkward stand-in term, because it focuses on the project as an attempt to ideologically present "the next stage" or replacement for liberalism:

No one has yet decided on the name for the force that has come to unseat liberalism. Some say it’s “Social Justice.” The author Rod Dreher has called it “therapeutic totalitarianism.” The writer Wesley Yang refers to it as “the successor ideology” — as in, the successor to liberalism.

At some point, it will have a formal name, one that properly describes its mixture of postmodernism, postcolonialism, identity politics, neo-Marxism, critical race theory, intersectionality, and the therapeutic mentality. Until then, it is up to each of us to see it plainly. We need to look past the hashtags and slogans and the jargon to assess it honestly — and then to explain it to others.

The new creed’s premise goes something like this: We are in a war in which the forces of justice and progress are arrayed against the forces of backwardness and oppression. And in a war, the normal rules of the game — due process; political compromise; the presumption of innocence; free speech; even reason itself — must be suspended. Indeed, those rules themselves were corrupt to begin with — designed, as they were, by dead white males in order to uphold their own power.

[1] https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/stop-being-...

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by nemo44x on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:55PM (#24795280)
Good read and I agree. She is so right and it’s sad she was chased out of the NYT.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by lawnchair_larry on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:41PM (#24795701)
Chased out through this very same mechanism even.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by jessaustin on Thursday October 15, 2020 @10:31PM (#24796831)
Weiss is, if anything, less genuine than Twitter execs on this issue.

https://theintercept.com/2018/03/08/the-nyts-bari-weiss-fals...

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by OCASM on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:20PM (#24795523)
Leftist totalitarianism.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by sidlls on Thursday October 15, 2020 @08:25PM (#24796028)
There isn't anything remotely "leftist" about this sort of thing. It's done in service of some left-ish movements. Or, rather, I'd argue that "progressive" and "left" have been (mis)appropriated.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by StanislavPetrov on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:09PM (#24795428)
>Today we're seeing journalists talk about how other journalists should be banned from the public square by powerful corporations. They seemingly aren't bright enough to pause and wonder if this will ever be used against them.

One of the issues is calling media personalities who read from teleprompters, "journalists". Call them actors, call them media spokespeople, but they aren't engaging in anything that can be construed as, "journalism". Further, it isn't in the interest of corporate media outlets to hire people who are smart. They want people who sound articulate, look good on camera and repeat the talking points that they are told to repeat. What we see on cable outlets these days shouldn't be considered, "news" so much as infotainment. By now, most people, regardless of their political affiliation (if any) understand that society has largely gone off the rails, and in their desperation they are left with an appeal to authority to make things better and restore a patina of "normality". It is dangerously seductive to suggest to people who are desperate to end the chaos that if we just silenced the "bad" people things would be okay (leaving unsaid who determines who is bad and what we are allowed to think and say).

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by nostromo on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:58PM (#24795845)
I'm not talking about cable news anchors, I'm talking about the New York Times, which is defending Twitter and Facebook censoring the Post.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by RonanTheGrey on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:05PM (#24797036)
It's really kind of mind boggling really. Does the Times not think they will ever fall afoul of the goodthink, and this weapon will never be used against them?
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by joe_the_user on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:14PM (#24794804)
Speech is considered violence by some people.

Some people consider a lot of speech violence but nearly everyone considers a small amount of speech violence or some equivalent. Telling someone to grab a electrified wire is violence by nearly everyone's standard. A mafioso directing a hit man to kill is nearly everyone's standard. The famous "shouting fire in a crowded theater" is mostly violence etc.

So you can't say the situation is "free speech or not". The situation is always where the boundary is. Of course, the question of where quickly spreading slander on the eve of an elections is on the spectrum of protected speech is a complicated question. But it's a bit different than the question of whether a given dogma can be challenged.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by nemo44x on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:35PM (#24795037)
Right when there is a clear and imminent danger has been the judicial limit on speech. I think nearly everyone finds this reasonable.

To my point though there is the idea that “silence is violence” which implies if you don’t actively work towards a certain groups objective then you are in fact committing violence.

Does this mean that when their social revolution is complete I will hang from the gallows pole because my named social media accounts do not account for me actively promoting their cause? After all my silence on the matter was a hostile act. Maybe I’ll just get a struggle session and be re-educated. Lifelong ban from participating in society but alive at least. If I’m lucky.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by tshaddox on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:06PM (#24795396)
> Right when there is a clear and imminent danger has been the judicial limit on speech.

Are you thinking of “clear and present danger”? That used to be the test in the United States, but since the 1960s it is “imminent lawless action.”

> I think nearly everyone finds this reasonable.

I don’t know about that. From what I can tell, the US legal system is extremely accepting of speech that incites violence relative to many other democratic governments. I think the current test is unreasonably lenient and likely allows a lot of speech that directly advocates and incites violence.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by joe_the_user on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:53PM (#24795806)
To my point though there is the idea that “silence is violence” which implies if you don’t actively work towards a certain groups objective then you are in fact committing violence.

Yeah, certain kind of leftists are prone to over-the-top rhetoric. What does it mean? Not a lot given these aren't organized group, not even ineffective organized group but just individuals seeking attention for themselves.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by thisiscorrect on Thursday October 15, 2020 @06:53PM (#24795249)
"Does this mean that when their social revolution is complete I will hang from the gallows pole because my named social media accounts do not account for me actively promoting their cause?" Yes, it does mean that. They're saying so explicitly.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by nemo44x on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:17PM (#24795486)
And I think it’s important to highlight as you have. People will say “well they don’t really _mean_ that”, etc. but they should be taken at their word. They do.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by nobody9999 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @10:51PM (#24796952)
>And I think it’s important to highlight as you have. People will say “well they don’t really _mean_ that”, etc. but they should be taken at their word. They do.

And who is "they"? Specifically. Not some amorphous "group" like "progressives" or "the left" or "SJWs".

I'm not being snarky here. It seems to me that one of the most damaging trends we're seeing is equating a hundred million (and more) people with the loudest, most obnoxious and nasty .01%.

Painting folks with such a broad brush is a recipe for division, conflict and mayhem.

Assuming that someone with a Trump bumper sticker is a dyed-in-the-wool racist and white supremacist fascist is stupid in the extreme. And so is assuming that someone with a Biden bumper sticker is a totalitarian monster bent on total mind control.

People are individuals and should be assessed and measured as such.

It's intellectually lazy to just stick anyone who doesn't share your beliefs about Trump or Biden or abortion or gun rights or any of a hundred other contentious issues into a big box called "enemies."

And when you do so, you play right into the hands of the tiny group of folks who want to profit (politically, economically or both) from dividing us.

You have the choice not to do so. It's up to you and me and everyone else to step up and judge people on their individual actions, not some invented "in" or "out" group.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by opo on Thursday October 15, 2020 @11:41PM (#24797216)
The infamous "shouting fire in a crowded theater" was mentioned by Holmes in U.S. v. Schenck which had nothing to do with fires or theaters. The case involved whether Schenck could be convicted under the Espionage Act for the crime of writing and distributing a pamphlet that expressed his opposition to the draft. That is the dangerous idea that sent a person to prison.

>...In 1969, the Supreme Court's decision in Brandenburg v. Ohio effectively overturned Schenck and any authority the case still carried. There, the Court held that inflammatory speech--and even speech advocating violence by members of the Ku Klux Klan--is protected under the First Amendment, unless the speech "is directed to inciting or producing imminent lawless action and is likely to incite or produce such action"

Even Holmes seemed to quickly realize that the Schenck decision was odious since in the same term, he also wrote:

>...In what would become his second most famous phrase, Holmes wrote in Abrams that the marketplace of ideas offered the best solution for tamping down offensive speech: "The ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas -- that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market, and that truth is the only ground upon which their wishes safely can be carried out."

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/11/its-tim...

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by lawnchair_larry on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:48PM (#24795762)
Telling someone to grab an electric fence is not violence by anyone’s standard. Nor is shouting fire. As a society, we have never considered those utterances to be violent crime.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by joe_the_user on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:51PM (#24795786)
You are incorrect here. "Shouting fire in a crowded theater" is one litmus test for speech not protected by the 1st Amendment. And telling someone to grab a wire that you know is electrified and they don't is pretty violent.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shouting_fire_in_a_crowded_the...

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by arminiusreturns on Thursday October 15, 2020 @08:28PM (#24796050)
How many times do we have to go over the fact that the fire issue is actually proves the point. It was a bad ruling used to silence Yiddish WW1 protestors that referenced that hypothetical in the first place! So tired of seeing this regurgitated so much.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by dahfizz on Thursday October 15, 2020 @10:31PM (#24796830)
You seem to be equating unprotected speech with violence. Perjury is also not protected under the 1st Amendment but there's nothing violent about it.

The only speech I would consider to even approach violence is a direct threat. And even that isn't really violence - it's the threat of violence.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by nobody9999 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @10:56PM (#24796990)
>The only speech I would consider to even approach violence is a direct threat. And even that isn't really violence - it's the threat of violence.

And credible threats of violence aren't protected speech either.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by lawnchair_larry on Friday October 16, 2020 @12:46AM (#24797574)
You seem to be agreeing with me. Replied to wrong comment? We’re saying the same thing.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by camelite on Friday October 16, 2020 @04:27AM (#24798797)
Your syllogism goes something like this:

Shouting fire is speech. Shouting fire is illegal Violence is illegal. Therefore spec is violence.

I don't even know where to begin picking it apart. It has the -form- of an argument, but...

These are strange times.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by lawnchair_larry on Friday October 16, 2020 @12:44AM (#24797564)
You are incorrect here. "Shouting fire in a crowded theater" is one litmus test for speech not protected by the 1st Amendment.

How does this contradict anything I said? I said it was not violent. It isn’t.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by nobody9999 on Thursday October 15, 2020 @10:55PM (#24796983)
>"Shouting fire in a crowded theater" is one litmus test

Nitpick: It's not "Shouting fire in a crowded theater" it's "Falsely Shouting fire in a crowded theater"

If there were a fire, I'd certainly want to know about it, wouldn't you?

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by airtonix on Thursday October 15, 2020 @08:35PM (#24796103)
again. wrong.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by montagg on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:22PM (#24795530)
There is absolutely speech that is violence, and it is typically not protected by free speech. Harassment, yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, calling for literal violence against others, these are allowed to be regulated (in the US) and understood broadly to be dangerous.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by lawnchair_larry on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:45PM (#24795735)
No, speech is not violence, full stop. It never has been, and it’s a mistake to even tolerate this new definition.

Think about it. How can calling for violence be violence? The violence is the violence, the calling for it is incitement.

Redefining terms like this is nothing more than subverting the truth to control a narrative.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by montagg on Thursday October 15, 2020 @08:00PM (#24795856)
Then you're going against a hundred years of legal thought on free speech there. There's a reason certain speech is not protected, and it's been hashed out. if you have a better legal argument than "it's just not," I'm interested, but it needs to address why previous thinking is incorrect. Edit: a [quick link][1] to all the types of speech in the US that is regulated and why.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_in_the_Unite...

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by sethammons on Thursday October 15, 2020 @09:03PM (#24796282)
Searched for 'violence' and derivative forms in that wiki link:

> limitations on free speech balance rights to free speech and other rights, such as rights for ... protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons.

The speech is not violent. However, we can say that speech that promotes such might not be allowed under "free speech."

Yelling "fire" in a crowded theater is not violent though it can cause people to panic and cause harm.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by lawnchair_larry on Friday October 16, 2020 @12:47AM (#24797578)
What does this have to do with what I said? Why do you think I said anything about what is protected? We are arguing about the definition of the word violence.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by scsilver on Thursday October 15, 2020 @08:17PM (#24795971)
Why is violence your line? What makes violence unacceptable but verbal harassment, abuses, bad faith arguments are deemed acceptable. Honest question that I'm still not settled on. What I still believe is that society should be the one managing this boundary area, and the state should stick to it's defined rules on free speech.

People should be able to boycot people, free enterprises should he able to manage their media channels, the state should not.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by lawnchair_larry on Friday October 16, 2020 @12:48AM (#24797588)
Who said violence is my line? Who said anything about what is and isn’t acceptable? Where are you getting this from? We are arguing over what the word violence means. I didn’t make any other claims.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by sethammons on Thursday October 15, 2020 @08:59PM (#24796257)
I've been called names and threatened, and I've been attacked. I know which one I consider violent actually physically dangerous vs stressful :)
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by heartbeats on Thursday October 15, 2020 @08:52PM (#24796206)
>Harassment

That is not regulated in the capacity of speech.

>yelling "fire" in a crowded theater

That line is from a 1919 court case about whether you could oppose the draft.

>calling for literal violence against others

This is permitted under Brandenburg v. Ohio. Calls to illegal action are only prohibited if they are (1) intended to cause illegal action, (2) reasonably likely to produce such action and (3) imminent.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by dahfizz on Thursday October 15, 2020 @10:34PM (#24796851)
Where does this idea come from that unprotected speech == violence? Perjury is not protected speech, do you think that is violent?

Violence is fundamentally a physical thing. Incitements to violence and threats of violence are bad, but they are not the same thing as violence.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by airtonix on Thursday October 15, 2020 @08:32PM (#24796077)
you're wrong.
Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by stolen_biscuit on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:29PM (#24795585)
> Speech is considered violence by some people. It has been this way since the late 80's but it was confined to certain subcultures that weren't taken too seriously. But they have taken over certain institutions, like the university (and increasingly big-tech), and own that platform and teach this as esteemed fact rather than an opinion.

Who is they?

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by nemo44x on Thursday October 15, 2020 @07:50PM (#24795779)
Fair question.

The radical left as some name them. But more specifically the activist culture motivated by “critical theory” to dismantle scientific-liberalism and enlightenment principals/philosophy.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by stolen_biscuit on Thursday October 15, 2020 @08:01PM (#24795871)
Just to clarify you believe the radical left have infiltrated the upper echelons of capitalist society and academic institutions and have an anti free-speech agenda and have a goal of dismantling enlightenment principals?

Can you also explain what you mean by scientific liberalism?

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by nemo44x on Thursday October 15, 2020 @09:06PM (#24796302)
“A liberal society stands on the proposition that we should all take seriously the idea that we might be wrong. This means we must place no one, including ourselves, beyond the reach of criticism; it means that we must allow people to err, even where the error offends and upsets, as it often will.”

- Johnathon Rausch

1) no one owns the blessings of what is knowledge by virtue of any sort of implied authority.

2) all accepted knowledge is open to revision upon new evidence or proof

This is a good read that articulates this more than I can.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/703086.Kindly_Inquisitor...

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by john_moscow on Friday October 16, 2020 @12:40AM (#24797537)
I think some people have an inherent need to gain influence. To have power over others, tell them what to do. Due to monopolization and centralization, there are fewer and fewer spots to do it in a constructive way (found your own company?).

Except if you claim that you're offended, you're suddenly given the right to control what others say. If you claim that you are fighting racism/sexism/etc, you're shielded from 90% of critique. So this "safe haven" has attracted all kinds of opportunists that just enjoy attacking others to feel better about themselves.

Look at your typical BLM protestors. It's not Black doctors protesting against being treated differently from White doctors. It's unhappy people from both races that have found an uncriticizable cause to justify their own disappointment in life.

Re:Twitter and Facebook's action over Joe Biden article reig... by 8note on Thursday October 15, 2020 @05:18PM (#24794138)
Conspiracy became illegal in the 80s? Threatening people? That seems recent