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Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by roenxi on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @07:59AM (#24764681)
The circumstantial evidence of HCQ being positive is substantial, and at least some of the complaints against it are politically motivated. Although how being hopeful about a COVID treatment became a pro-Trump political stance is beyond me.

They can wait until the scientific evidence is overwhelming. No hurry, there are a lot of studies starting to come due. Bodies are complex and maybe something is going on that hasn't been thought of yet.

EDIT Thanks swebs for the HCL->HCQ correction.

Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by OnACoffeeBreak on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @08:20AM (#24764869)
Seems like your wait is over. From the second half of [0]:

> Hydroxychloroquine treatment for coronavirus does not work. It is not beneficial, and in fact appears to be actively harmful. As far as I’m concerned, administering it to infected patients now constitutes medical malpractice.

Check the linked article for reference to the study.

0: https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2020/10/09/ha...

Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by roenxi on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @08:31AM (#24764959)
One of my favourite posts on HN was some gentleman telling me that masks didn't help against COVID, that the science was in, and that I was endangering lives by even suggesting something so stupid when either the WHO or CDC or Fauci had debunked the idea. I think that was back around April.

My current policy is to wait until the evidence is older than a week. That is one open label study on patients that were already in hospital - strong evidence, but not a final word. Maybe they missed something, maybe they made a mistake. Science is hard.

Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by hn_throwaway_99 on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @09:33AM (#24765394)
I think you're making false equivalences.

To be clear, there has never been good scientific evidence that masks are ineffective against respiratory viruses. I think WHO, CDC and Fauci made grave errors at the time by making the argument that mask-wearing by the general public "doesn't work". The clear (and quite understandable) fear was that there would be a run on masks by the general public, so instead of telling the truth ("we need the masks for healthcare workers") they made broader and confusing statements about the effectiveness of masks that were not supported by the underlying science. This had the terrible effect, as your post shows, of making people even more wary of scientific pronouncements. Mine is not an isolated viewpoint. There was a good opinion article in the Washington Post at the time by an influential researcher where she argued the same thing.

Contrarily, the good studies that have come out about HCQ have nearly uniformly shown their potential danger. There is simply no equivalence between the scientific data that HCQ is harmful and the data (that never existed mind you) that mask-wearing is ineffective.

Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by hef19898 on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @10:24AM (#24765814)
Yeah, the mask thing was one gigantic communications failure. I#ll give them the benfit of doubt, so, and asume they really believed COVID-19 was mostly transmitted through surfaces and less through droplets. Which would make masks less effecitive. Regardless, it was a gamble, one that didn't pay off considering all the rediculous discussions about masks right now. But then I am almost sure we would have the same discussions about other things, or even masks, if communication had been done differently.
Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by em500 on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @11:03AM (#24766234)
> My current policy is to wait until the evidence is older than a week. That is one open label study on patients that were already in hospital - strong evidence, but not a final word. Maybe they missed something, maybe they made a mistake. Science is hard.

Indeed: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S120197122...

I'd say it's not conclusively settled yet.

Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by jjeaff on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @01:52PM (#24767942)
The truth of the efficacy of hydroxy chloroquine to treat covid may not be settled.

But what is settled is that there is not enough conclusive evidence right now to use it as a treatment.

In medicine, when confronted with low degrees of certainty, the default is to -not- administer to treatment until proven otherwise.

As a side note, notice that it appears Trump did not receive HCQ as part of his treatment regiment.

Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by gridlockd on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @08:42AM (#24765028)
"As far as I’m concerned, administering it to infected patients now constitutes medical malpractice. I have no interest in goalpost-moving efforts to say that they didn’t administer zinc or azithromycin, or they picked the wrong patients or the wrong loading dose or whatever. No."

The original treatment protocol included zinc, so it's nonsense to say that adding in zinc is "moving the goalpost". Not testing in combination with zinc is moving the goalpost. The interaction between zinc and HCQ is key. Azithromycin is just to prevent potential secondary bacterial infection, which isn't necessarily a big factor in COVID mortality.

"This is special pleading, and it is not backed up by any hard data."

Here's a study that showed adding zinc to HCQ reduced mortality by 50%:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32930657/

Unfortunately, that study didn't test zinc without HCQ, but the hypothesis is that HCQ acts as an ionophore and is therefore beneficial.

Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by rsynnott on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @03:26PM (#24769260)
> The original treatment protocol included zinc

Eh? No, it didn't. People started talking about zinc when it became clear that Raoult's results weren't reproducible.

Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by gridlockd on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @04:11PM (#24769784)
You're right about Raoult not mentioning zinc, but Zelenko used zinc from the beginning.

Also, significant reduction in mortality using HCQ alone early during the treatment has been reproduced:

https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.09.09.20184143v...

The earlier trials weren't testing prophylactic treatment.

Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by Izkata on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @07:56PM (#24771732)
Switzerland accidentally performed such an experiment on their population as well - also showing HCQ saves lives: http://www.francesoir.fr/sites/francesoir/files/20200713_fs_...

Image from http://www.francesoir.fr/societe-sante/covid-19-hydroxychlor...

Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by est31 on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @08:36AM (#24764994)
Btw, as you bring up politics, Trump's own doctors, who absolutely know what they are doing, gave him a long list of medications, including some experimental ones which weren't even ermergency approved by the FDA yet, but that list did not include HCL.

https://www.boston25news.com/news/trending/trump-coronavirus...

Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by gridlockd on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @08:53AM (#24765110)
It's indeed curious, also Trump at one point claimed to be taking HCQ prophylactically, I wonder how far that went.

Having said that, giving somebody "experimental treatment" and "knowing what one is doing" is contradictory. According to Trump, he asked for the experimental antibody therapy himself. As his doctor, you then have the choice of playing the odds or putting "got fired by Trump" on your resume.

Re:Characteristics of SARS-CoV-2 and Covid-19 by hn_throwaway_99 on Tuesday October 13, 2020 @09:36AM (#24765412)
I think putting "got fired by Trump" on your resume would be a badge of integrity and honor.