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Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by jfjrkemf on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:32AM (#24718112)
Is it true that Japanese sword makers were forced to do their famous process (bend and work the metal again and again) because of some other deficiency in their process (either source material or knowledge), and Europeans swords were just as good, but much faster to make because of superior starting materials/knowledge? So in a sense, the superiority of Katana swords is a myth?
Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by exDM69 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:59AM (#24718287)
Yes, Japanese blacksmithing and metal industry is very highly skilled to compensate the poor quality of iron ore available in the region.

The "ore" (called Tamahagane) is sandy/rocky stone material which needs to be forged repeatedly to remove impurities and get a higher carbon content in the steel. Then the forged bars are broken down, pieces sorted by carbon content and forge welded back together. This is a very labor and skill intensive process.

There was a really good blacksmithing video in YouTube about making a Katana from Tamahagane. Unfortunately I can't find it now, but my searches come up with many low quality vids on the subject.

If you're feeling adventurous, you can buy some Tamahagane sword steel ore from here:

https://www.dictum.com/en/steel-cca/japanese-sword-steel-tam...

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by masklinn on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:09AM (#24718351)
> The "ore" (called Tamahagane) is sandy/rocky stone material which needs to be forged repeatedly to remove impurities and get a higher carbon content in the steel.

FWIW tamagahane is already a steel, made from processing ironsand. Tamahagane is not the raw material.

Ironsand is found throughout the world, but outside of the japanese few made actual iron (or steel) out of it historically, because there are usually better sources of iron available.

NZ is an other country which is very poor in iron ore but it has a lot of ironsand, some of its beaches are ironsand (which is genuinely dangerous: it heats up quickly and very high in the sun). While the japanese were largely the only historical users of ironsand, I think NZ is the only one which industrially smelts ironsand.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by exDM69 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:24AM (#24718454)
Thanks for clarification!

There aren't any iron ore mines in my corner of the world either. The material traditionally used was called "lake ore", which is iron-rich stones collected from lakes that are the result of activity from iron-consuming freshwater bacteria.

Some blacksmithing enthusiasts still work with lake ore for a fun challenge.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by Raphmedia on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:34AM (#24718958)
> So in a sense, the superiority of Katana swords is a myth?

It depends on what you mean by superiority. Perfect for local needs? Yes. Very good against an unarmoured target? Yes. It is also an important status symbol because of its price and artistic beauty. It also requires some amount of skill to use, because of its single edge and the angle at which you need to strike in order to cut. That increased its status as an elite tool.

They managed to do something that would not have been possible in this part of the world without the elite craftsmen. In that sense, it was superior to its competitors.

But was it superior to other swords? It's comparing apples and oranges. It could not deal with the heavy armor seen in the West. But many Western swords could not either. Some could because they were heavier or pointier... but that would have made them poor against unarmoured or low armored targets. You couldn't use it on horseback either, but the Japanese had longer versions for that.

It was a very good and beautiful tool, that's what it was.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by viridian on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:57AM (#24719122)
I don't think this is true if you turn your eye towards later sword technology.

By the 14th century, Swiss sabers were simply more generally performant than just about anything that came before. They could stab almost as well as a long sword, and slash almost as well as a scimitar, with good balance, and the added advantage of having both a cross guard, and a light basket hand guard.

(Personally I think swords are an over-romanticized weapon, and almost wholly inferior to spears in large scale melee combat, but they still evolved like every other piece of military technology, and earlier designs like the katana have a lot of obvious design flaws when compared to what you see on the battlefield in the 14th, 15th, or 16th centuries)

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by Raphmedia on Thursday October 08, 2020 @10:56AM (#24719642)
By competitors I meant locally or in areas with similar issues of poor raw materials.

Otherwise, I completely agree with you. The Swiss saber was made to deal with similar targets as the Katana, so it performs in similar ways with the added benefit of having all the features you would expect on a western sword. Another sword that is quite similar to the Katana is the Kriegsmessers, which is also two handed. Both benefited from the advance in European warfare technologies while the Katana kind of stalled in it's perceived "perfected" form.

Swords are over-romanticized now but I believe that it was also the case in the past. Any hardened soldier could have told you that spears or pikes where what won wars. Yet it's the sword we see and hear the most in art. The myths surrounding the Katana are probably as old as the sword itself.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by giardini on Thursday October 08, 2020 @12:01PM (#24720387)
viridian says "Personally I think swords are an over-romanticized weapon, and almost wholly inferior to spears..."

Yes, and even inferior to the staff. Here is a (1599!) plea to Englishmen to cease wastefully killing each other in duels (esp. with Italian mores/swords/styles) b/c those swords/styles are unsuited to generalized warfare (and thus provide no useful training for the common defense) and also are inferior to other more common weapons/styles, esp. the short staff, in single combat:

"Now for the vantage of the short staff against the sword and buckler, sword & target, two handed sword, single sword, sword and dagger, or rapier and poniard, there is no great question ... the short staff has the vantage against the battle axe, black bill, or halberd: the short staff has the advantage, by reason of the nimbleness and length: he will strike and thrust freely, and in better and swifter time than can the battle axe, black bill, or halberd, and by reason of his judgement, distance and time, fight safe. And this resolve upon, the short staff is the best weapon against all manner of weapons, the forest bill excepted...Also the short staff has advantage against two swords and daggers, or two rapiers, poniards and gauntlets(19)...

From George Silver's Paradoxes of Defense:

http://www.pbm.com/~lindahl/paradoxes.html

wherein Silver analyzes the interaction of various weapons in great detail, underscores the advantages of the short staff in most situations and in doing so presages Theodore Roosevelt:

"I have always been fond of the West African proverb: 'Speak softly and carry a big stick: you will go far!'"

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/speak-softly-and-carry-a...

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by user5994461 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:02PM (#24721188)
He's talking about single combat. I don't think that's relevant to battlefield.

I expect stick would have the problem of not killing. A sword can easily stab someone dead or maim and any hit is (significant) bleeding. A hammer could bludgeon someone dead in a hit.

But a staff? I don't know about that. Yes you can hit somebody in a duel from afar and keep your distance, yet you hit them 5 times and they keep coming at you.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by giardini on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:57PM (#24721815)
user5994461 says "He's talking about single combat. I don't think that's relevant to battlefield."

In "Paradoxes of Defense" Silver talks about both:

a) He believes that dueling traditions adopted from other cultures are wasteful of English life and limb and provide little or no training for use on the battlefield. It was important that each well-bodied Englishman be able to serve his country in a war. Once war was declared, there was scant time for training with new weapons and the dueling skills were not very useful.

b) He discusses most weapons and considers their use in one-on-one, one-on-two and battle situations.

user5994461 says "I expect stick would have the problem of not killing."

Many have been killed/wounded by a "stick"(AKA rolling pin, tire tool, baseball bat, 2x4, flashlight, etc.). But "sticks" per se vary from a short stick, e.g., police baton, to a short staff, e.g., 1-2 inch diameter by ~1 meter length, to a longer staff (maybe ~3 meters and longer). Sizes differ for different cultures. Some "sticks" have lead/iron weights in them. Some are wrapped with metal.

A larger weapon is usually capable of dealing harder blows. "Sticks" kill by breaking heads and bones (ribs, shins, arms and legs, the neck, eyes, throat), etc. Usually they disable immediately (hard to fight with a broken leg or if your larynx has been crushed). It would be foolish to fight with a broken arm or missing eye if one could simply play dead.

user5994461 says "...yet you hit them 5 times and they keep coming at you."

You need a bigger stick or some exercise. Oh, and don't mess with those Orcs!8-))

Silver(author of Paradoxes of Defense) was likely more familiar with this than you or I. I don't doubt his experience.

An English nursery rhyme:

Sticks and stones

may break my bones

But words shall never hurt me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sticks_and_Stones

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by user5994461 on Friday October 09, 2020 @06:33AM (#24728544)
I was more thinking of a stick like a spear without a tip. Not a bat or a short police baton.

One challenge with all these examples is that they are used because they are handy not because they are efficient. The police baton is perfect example of something used to NOT kill (manifestations would be terribly bloody if the police was responding with swords or daggers), it's better than nothing but you don't want to go to battle with that.

If we're talking medieval fighting the other party has significant padding if not a gambeson, and they're not waiting idle to get your best hit. If training with wood weapons is any indication, the one with a stick variant loose everytime, they can hit but they get closed upon anyway and stabbed/slashed.

If you make the (long) stick a spear, a tip that can cut and stab, it's a great weapon. You'd certainly want to have a spear not just a long stick.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by giardini on Friday October 09, 2020 @02:44PM (#24733039)
user5994461 says"If training with wood weapons is any indication, the one with a stick variant loose everytime, they can hit but they get closed upon anyway and stabbed/slashed."

A wood mock up of a sword would, of course, not be as useful against an iron sword (especially if deployed in a sword-like manner) as would a 6-foot staff of hickory. What kind of "wood weapon" are you speaking of? Are you speaking in the context of some "dojo" or some style of martial art?

One problem with dojo drills is that the opponent must "hold back" due to possibility of injury. Also, in a dojo, only one style (e.g., use of the rapier) is usually being taught: not unsurprisingly all other styles somehow fail to measure up. There are many reasons for this: unskilled users, absence of in-house expert ("sensei", "master", etc.) in the opposing style, the power of suggestion.

Don't confuse choreographed drills in a dojo with a real fight/battle. Some dojos sell the belief that their weapon of choice (longsword, rapier, long staff, Klingon Bat'Leth, short staff, firearm, knife, bare hands, etc.) is the "one and true" weapon that will protect you against all comers. But they'can't all be dominant in all situations and that is part of what Silvers' "Paradoxes of Defense" says.

In a real fight the pole cracks skulls, breaks legs and arms and is thrust into mouths, noses, eyes and necks before an opponent's blade can reach the poler. A "stick", as you call it, can be as long but is likely quicker than the sword, cannot be easily damaged by the sword and as Silvers summarizes, is superior in battle.

Pictures of men wearing gambesons show exposed faces and limbs. The gambeson likely lowers mobility (and might be uncomfortably warm). It resembles a bulletproof vest, most which spend their time in the closet. And, as you may know, a man with a knife can make short work of a man in or out of a bulletproof vest (there are gaps).

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by Raphmedia on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:51PM (#24721741)
I believe that you are downplaying the effect of being hit across the head with a staff. It is no different than a hammer in the sense that you can break someone's limbs and kill them with a blow to the head. Combat staffs were not non-lethal.

Take for example the Bo that can easily break bones and can bend even a Katana with a proper strike.

Even pool cues will kill when used in bar fights.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by fouc on Thursday October 08, 2020 @10:37AM (#24719441)
Swiss Saber looks to be primarily one handed, whereas Katana is two handed. They both have somewhat similar long/curved blades though. And they both have the cross guard.
Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by dragontamer on Thursday October 08, 2020 @05:06PM (#24723952)
The king of weapons has always been the polearm.

The Halberd for Europeans, the Qiang in China, the Naginata of Japan.

Across the world, it has been demonstrated that to make a "better sword", you put the sword on the end of a long stick. Such a weapon requires less training, and the greater amount of wood makes it lighter and cheaper to manufacture.

The additional swing weight allowed Halberd users to regularly break shields and punch through armor. Length and swing-weight are key.

-------

Swords almost universally were status symbols. It was expensive to make a sword no matter what culture you're in, so carrying a fancy sword indicated nobility.

Smaller weapons (and smaller shields) like swords were for status and every day situations. Bucklers / Rapiers don't make any sense as a battlefield weapon. But when you consider the day-to-day life, walking around a city... the smaller blade and smaller shield suddenly make sense.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by vkou on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:41PM (#24721625)
> It could not deal with the heavy armor seen in the West. But many Western swords could not either. Some could because they were heavier or pointier... but that would have made them poor against unarmoured or low armored targets. You couldn't use it on horseback either, but the Japanese had longer versions for that.

That's what different sword grips were for, though. It is common to grasp a sword by the blade, in order to parry, or to use it as a kind of spear, or even to reverse the grip on the weapon, and striking with the edges of the cross-guard - as you would with a hammer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGr0aE7UQpQ

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by dragontamer on Thursday October 08, 2020 @05:13PM (#24724011)
> That's what different sword grips were for, though. It is common to grasp a sword by the blade, in order to parry, or to use it as a kind of spear, or even to reverse the grip on the weapon, and striking with the edges of the cross-guard - as you would with a hammer.

In a serious battle however, you'd simply call the squire to fetch you a war-hammer, a spear, or whatever other weapon you needed.

European weapons are fascinating: they had a different weapon for every kind of battle situation. One polearm to pull people off of horses. Another polearm to break through shields and armor. Etc. etc.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by pjc50 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:11AM (#24718362)
There is a lot of mythology in this area about steel folding, which acts to even out the amount of carbon in the steel and remove impurities as slag. The corresponding Western process is "Damascus steel" and you can still get decorative "damascening" (which is often just faked on the surface).

The blog I would refer people to is https://acoup.blog/2020/10/02/collections-iron-how-did-they-... (in general as well as that post); I don't think they've covered katanas specifically but they are great on detail.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by Raphmedia on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:29AM (#24718917)
You can get actual Damascus items too, not merely the cheap decorative version.

For example, there is this smithy that is local to me: https://www.darksword-armory.com/medieval-weapons/elite-seri...

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by antiterra on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:44AM (#24719043)
From your link:

> also known as pattern welded steel swords

Pattern welded steel is not the same thing as the ‘original’ Damascus steel from 1000+ years ago.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wootz_steel

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by Raphmedia on Thursday October 08, 2020 @11:48AM (#24720246)
In that sense, I agree. I mainly wanted to highlight that there are "Damascus"-style products that are more than regular steel with laser etched patterns.
Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by btreecat on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:55AM (#24719114)
Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by readams on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:48AM (#24719067)
Nobody makes actual Damascus steel. Layering multiple steels and forge welding them is not how Damascus steel was made.
Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by Raphmedia on Thursday October 08, 2020 @11:47AM (#24720235)
In that sense, I agree. I mainly wanted to highlight that there are "Damascus"-style products that are more than regular steel with laser etched patterns.
Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by Athas on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:53AM (#24718244)
Japan is notoriously mineral-poor, so they had to put in extra effort that is not necessary with better raw materials. Further, I suppose this scarcity means that swords become more of a prestige item, meaning that you can put in more effort when manufacturing one. In contrast, when decent steel is cheap (relatively; we're still taking pre-industrialisation), then you might do something more akin to mass-production.
Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by hef19898 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:48AM (#24718213)
That is true. The same reason why mediaval swords used a similar process, not folding but twisting the steel. The reason are impurities in the ore deposits. Japans deposits have more of them than e.g. European ones. Which kind of enabled more advanced metalurgy in Europe, ultimately leading to stuff like spring steel.

The folding and reforging reomves these impurities from the steel and changes the carbon content, making the stell more flexible or harder and thus sharper but also more brittle. Quite ingenious, if you aske me. Nowadays, Japanese deposits can be exploited with electromagnets, resulting in basically pure iron ore making all that metalurgy more or less unnecessary.

Not that Japanese swords were bad, they were as good as any other sword in killing people. So no katana superiority, but neither any deficiencies compared to European swords.

Also be aware that swords used to be the medival equivalent of modern day pistols. More or less.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by cyphar on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:49AM (#24718216)
I'm not a metalworker at all (I just spent a bunch of time last year researching it while diving down a rabbit hole of forging YouTube videos). However, I did stumble upon a longer explanation of this.

Folding steel is only required to remove impurities, so in theory high-quality steel doesn't require much folding (if any). However in Japan due to the volcanic nature of the land, the iron deposits are full of impurities which lead to the need for folding. After you've done enough folding you end up with a billet which is basically the same quality as western steel. In other words, there's nothing intrinsically better about the steel in a finished Japanese sword (if anything the starting materials are worse).

But again, I'm only speaking a someone who read about this and other bits of metalworking last year in a spurt of interest in the subject. Wikipedia claims otherwise:

> The folding removes impurities and helps even out the carbon content, while the alternating layers combine hardness with ductility to greatly enhance the toughness.

But in my mind this does raise the question "why don't all modern swordsmiths all use this technique if its objectively superior?"

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by hef19898 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:17AM (#24718405)
Because spring steel is even better. Before that, European swordsmiths did the same with Damast-steel. Spring steel made stuff like rapiers, short swords and so on possible. And long-swords, which only worked with spring steel against solid plate armor.

Katanas retain their sharpness better, so, as they are harder. And carried in wooden scabords and not metal ones as European sabres and such.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by VBprogrammer on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:07AM (#24718334)
I don't think that's quite right. An early name for Steel is Wrought Iron. The Iron had to be wrought, or worked, to remove the impurities. The main one is reducing the carbon content, when the metal is folded it allows the carbon to burn off as carbon dioxide, when the process is repeated often enough you can get the carbon content down to the low single digits. Until the invention of crucible steel this was the only way of producing steel.

Certainly perhaps the Japanese steel may have contained other impurities and been harder to refine but certainly European Iron had to be worked to make Steel.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by readams on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:53AM (#24719098)
Wrought iron is not steel.
Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by cyphar on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:25AM (#24718458)
Yeah, you're quite right. I guess I should've said it required more folding (given how much the folded aspect of Japanese steel is sold as being a key aspect of what makes it "unique")?
Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by VBprogrammer on Thursday October 08, 2020 @12:28PM (#24720695)
I think that's probably a bit of a simplification. My understanding is that the Japanise swordsmiths were able to forge weld a higher carbon cutting edge onto a softer steel blade. That is what gave them the properties of strength and edge keeping.
Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by whatisthiseven on Thursday October 08, 2020 @10:58AM (#24719664)
No, it is a complete myth, something that virtually all sword makers across the world were doing. Japanese iron ore was actually higher quality than most, and they had plenty of iron ore for sword making (though iron was later imported during the industrial revolution).

See this answer on a subreddit dedicated to high quality answers by historians: https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/77tq5r/japan...

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by elp on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:54AM (#24718248)
I've always wondered that myself.

Those blades would have been so expensive in relative terms that I truly wonder how much real combat they were used in. In any war the peon's get the worst of it. Anyone rich/ senior enough to have them wasn't going to be on the front line.

Then there's the fact that the handle was usually attached by a single mekugi ( bamboo or ivory peg ) which is not strong from an engineering point of view and completely at odds with that engineering marvel of a blade but perfect for swapping out the handle to match the fashion occasion.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by hef19898 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:01AM (#24718296)
As always, there were crap ones and expensive ones. Same as everywhere. Also quite funny, the most expensive part, even today, of a katana from a Japanese smith is not the blade but all the other stuff.

IMHO, Katanas became or rather retained their religious status with Japan closing down and more or less freezing social development. The knighlty sowrd was somewhat replaced in that role in Europe with the introduction of firearms and the fall of Knights.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by ceejayoz on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:41AM (#24719016)
> Those blades would have been so expensive in relative terms that I truly wonder how much real combat they were used in. In any war the peon's get the worst of it. Anyone rich/ senior enough to have them wasn't going to be on the front line.

There are parallels in modern warfare.

Javelin missiles cost $175k, and are fired by troops making $20k/year. It gets even more disparate when you move into things like fighter jets.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by fatbird on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:54AM (#24719103)
I asked a question like this on Ask Metafilter[0] and got some detailed answers. The consensus among metallurgists, rather than swordmakers, is apparently that almost everyone had crap iron to work with, and various techniques for dealing with that; but Japanese process was better overall because the rarity/expense of iron in Japan meant more effort (expense) put into labour. It was easier to get a cheap, crappy blade in Europe.

[0] https://ask.metafilter.com/153280/Steel-is-strong-but-flesh-...

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by Waterluvian on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:40AM (#24718148)
I have to find the source. I’m not sure how good it is. But I’ve heard katanas are junk swords that work just fine because most of the time any cuttystabbything will do just fine.

There’s also that somewhat famous (infamous?) Lindy Beige video on the subject on YouTube. But I get a sense that there’s a lot of opinion and subjectivity when it comes to a historian’s perspective.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by cyphar on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:52AM (#24718234)
I'd think that it's more likely that all swords are about as good as any other. If katanas really were junk swords to the point where it made a material difference, Shogun would've used imported western sword designs (pre-isolation) and today's modern katanas would have ended up being just western swords.

I'd have assumed thay "any cuttystabbything will do" applies to basically any kind of sword.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by antepodius on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:22AM (#24718856)
People focus too much on swords, anyway. Pole weapons were the primary melee weapons for most combatants, including samurai, with swords being akin to sidearms.

But there are certainly trade-offs in design. Katanas are good at chopping unarmoured opponents and being sharp. The crossguard of a longsword can and was used to bludgeon an armored opponent, who would be basically immune to cuts. So if I abducted you and forced you to pick a sword from a lineup, then fight someone to the death, you'd want to know who you were fighting and what they had, and pick based on that.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by Waterluvian on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:00AM (#24718290)
That sounds sensible. Probably really didn’t need the quality we can muster today, just quantity and capacity for repairs.

Now I’m curious and have to explore this further.

Re:The companies that bring us knife steel by hef19898 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:50AM (#24718224)
Lindy is maybe not the best source. People with knowledge in metalurgy and the use of swords in the historic context would be better.