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Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by DoingIsLearning on Thursday October 08, 2020 @03:23AM (#24716746)
A lot of anglo speaking countries like to quote Portugal as an example, I would just like to add some reality to the picture perfect descriptions I read:

- The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic, the last one of those is particularly airborne contagious. I often see the lumping of 'heavy' drugs but (although decriminalized) Cocaine consumption in Portugal was marginal at the time (mostly because the majority of the population couldn't afford it). The main precipitator was Heroin consumption.

- These programs served as a 'trojan horse' anchor point to bring these, often homeless/missing, people back into the healthcare system. For added controversy for the americans out there, healthcare is universally free in Portugal.

- There was a clear rupture point both in crime rates and the prison system capacity due to the heroin epidemic. Police forces could no longer be bothered with the 'noise' of the numerous small possessions of 'non-heavy' drugs like haxixe or marijuana. Offloading that to mental health practioners was also logistically useful for law enforcement.

- It took a considerable amount of additional healthcare funding for these programs to be implemented. This would _not_ have been possible for an economy like Portugal without supplementary funds from the European Union economic development programs.

- I am very suspicious of the counter-argument insinuation that the program initially _caused_ an increase in crime rates and consumption, because the start of the program also matched the start of a fairly large economic downturn. The main idea of the program was that people could go and ask for help, without the fear of being put in jail. If you have a desperate person, willing to do desperate things, not pushing them against a corner is usually a good policy for crime rates.

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by galfarragem on Thursday October 08, 2020 @06:59AM (#24717924)
It's not the first time the NYT insists in this idea. Ok, it's good advertisement to our tourism but this is just fake news.

I grew up in one of the "drug towns" of the late 80's/early 90's in Portugal. It was bad, really bad. There wasn't any extended family without a drug problem. That generation, bornt after the 1974 revolution, now in the mid 40's, was almost erased from there. Some died and those remaining, after a life of petty crime and prison, eventually escaped.

Completely agree with your comment. I would just add another relevant factor to the roll: decriminalization gave even more visibility to the addiction problem and newer generations didn't like what they saw. It wasn't cool to use drugs anymore.

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by f-securus on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:18AM (#24718821)
Personally, growing up in Appalachia in the 90s it was more likely my extended family was abusing drugs than not. Cracking down on pill mills and making Oxy less abusable has pushed more and more to heroin/meth/synthetics. The drug problem is still rampant in the area. People need help and the barrier to receiving help in this country is too high.

I had a friend begging for help with treatment and the only in patient place at the time for substance abuse in the area had an 8 week waiting list... and you had to pay your way so unless you had a family/friend with extra resources you were on your own.

We wonder why the drug problem still exists in this country where we punish those struggling instead of help them.

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by tonyarkles on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:48AM (#24719070)
Your description of the in-patient problem sadly reflects the state of affairs up in Canada too, where most, but not all, healthcare is free (eyes and teeth are strange exceptions).

I’ve got an older friend who did a lot of drugs back in the day, but got his life mostly figured out until a few years ago when he had to get shoulder surgery. Prescribed Oxy for recovery, even after telling the surgeon about his past addiction struggles. As expected, they become less effective over time, he likes getting high, so he starts taking larger doses. Gets to the end of his prescription and can’t get a refill.

Did he make bad choices here? Definitely. But then the health care system screws up:

“I want to detox and get clean again.”

“Sorry, you’ve never overdosed, so you can’t detox in the hospital. Maybe you can get on a waiting list for a private (out of pocket) facility. Oh, and no refills, you’re an addict”

“Maybe I can be a short-term patient at a mental health facility?”

“Sorry, you’ve never tried committing suicide because of your drug use. Maybe you can get on a wait list at a private facility? Oh, and no refills, you’re an addict!”

So... what does an opioid addict who is in withdrawal and can’t get support from the health care system do? Goes and scores some heroin...

Today he’s mostly clean again. I think he pops a pill here and there but isn’t high all day. But... this could have all been avoided. The health care system had many opportunities to help out here, but didn’t.

Edit: one last note: the private facilities are quite expensive and have massive waiting lists. Even if he had had the cash to go, he would have still been in limbo for weeks-to-months with no access to clean drugs nor support to get clean.

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by dkarl on Thursday October 08, 2020 @11:42AM (#24720181)
> decriminalization gave even more visibility to the addiction problem and newer generations didn't like what they saw

I can believe this. My father used to tell me that drugs like heroin have recurring waves of popularity, because when a dangerous drug becomes popular enough, the Russian roulette aspect becomes so obvious. Everybody knows somebody whose life has been ruined by it. When a drug becomes niche, the few people you know who use it might be handling it okay (or early in their trajectory with the drug) and their experience with it can look cool and attractive. He also said his generation was the last one where basically everybody had seen firsthand what heroin could do to people, but he was optimistic that it had "killed enough famous musicians" that it couldn't come back. That was in the 1990s, so....

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by js2 on Thursday October 08, 2020 @01:59PM (#24721834)
Sorry, but what's your complaint about this specific piece from the NYT?

Just skimming, I see 21 links to other sources. I haven't clicked through on all of them. It appears to weigh various pros and cons. It seems even handed to me on a quick skim.

Further, the NYT has many sections and voices. This piece is specifically from from The Upshot which has this tagline: "Analysis that explains politics, policy and everyday life, with an emphasis on data and charts."

And this specific piece is written not by a reporter, but by a expert in the field: Austin Frakt is director of the Partnered Evidence-Based Policy Resource Center at the V.A. Boston Healthcare System; associate professor with Boston University’s School of Public Health; and a senior research scientist with the Harvard T.H. Chan School of Public Health.

I appreciate the rest of your comment.

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by DoingIsLearning on Thursday October 08, 2020 @04:41PM (#24723726)
Not the grand parent comment and I don't have anything specifically against the NYT or this piece, which I agree is pretty balanced.

It is great that they paint a positive picture of Portugal as a forward-thinking progressive nation, the point that Portuguese people often take an issue with this and other pieces, in american and british press, is that they fail to explain the motivation behind this policy.

These measures were not a hippie social experiment, they were created out of a desperate lack of alternatives in the face of a de facto public health crisis due to a heroin epidemic.

I cannot put in words that make it justice, you had entire neighbourhoods become drug slums with hundreds of heroin dealers and people inject on the sidewalks in broad daylight. It was crime problem, it was a health problem, it was a whole generation of people lost to this. It's this omission in the 'why' of decriminalization that feels somewhat dishonest.

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by 082349872349872 on Sunday October 11, 2020 @01:39AM (#24743960)
Reading highly reductive US coverage of my country is what makes me skeptical they do much better in covering their own national news.
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by adamcharnock on Thursday October 08, 2020 @05:52AM (#24717537)
I've been living in rural Portugal for a little while now, and these are some excellent comments. Especially the first point.

I'd also add that there is still a Heroin problem, albeit diminished. It is not unusual to see someone walking though the local village, out-of-their head drunk at 9am on a Wednesday. It isn't alcohol though, it's Heroin. But it is also an economically poor area. The weather is amazing and the place is gorgeous, but for someone raised here who doesn't manage to escape it can also be a trap. Many of the older people work in the fields in the morning, the in the late afternoon they meet in the cafes and chat about village life. Coffee is $0.15, a beer is $0.7. There a very few younger people. Those that can leave have left for a city. The ones who remain are that ones who were not able to leave. I spoke with the local President last week and he himself said that the area has become a skills desert.

So yes, I think the route to Heroin addition looks something like this. Get financially stuck in the local area. Get a bad reputation for being lazy. Try to become YouTube/Insta famous. Give up. Turn on those that tried to help. Drink & smoke weed as an escape. When those stop working try Heroin. I know a couple of people in my village that are on this path right now.

There is some crime here. It seems to fall into two categories. First is petty crime where something goes missing that's worth about $100. That's enough to quickly sell for immediate cash (likely for some form of drug). This has happened to me twice, and I don't really mind.

There is more 'organised' crime where a place gets methodically burgled when someone is away. I know people this has happened to.

There is a rapidly growing contingent of foreigners here now, and we're mostly accepted. Economically, I get the impression that most businesses prefer to deal with the foreigners. Even the guy that sells firewood says that 95% of his customers are now foreigners, and that he prefers it that way. There are lots more foreigners arriving too (leaving cities due to covid, basically), very few Portuguese people being added. Most people in my village are over 60. It'll be interesting to see how the demographics play out over the coming years.

Anyway, maybe that is of some interest. The region of Portugal I am in is Castelo Branco. I'm starting an ISP here too: https://gardunha.net

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by jamexcb on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:27AM (#24718482)
"I've been living in rural Portugal for a little while now" Not long enough! I'm from Castelo Branco and coffee is not $0.15... not even a "carioca de limão". Needle exchange program started 1993 along with other programs like "metadoda" to help addiction. With a needle they also provided condoms and an open door if you wanted help. During the 80's you could find needles everywhere, people stealing from their own parents, houses, business, everyone knew someone with drug problems. Was a mess. And even worst in big cities. The government also start ending slums. Decriminalization was not the start of this "war"!

The situation is not perfect, and will never be, but is a LOT better than before! Portugal is a lot safer. The crime that you talk about is probably not drug related and probably not local people. Just read the news. Did you find any place to sell used things? No except for gold.

And if you find someone "drunk" at 9am you bet he is drunk lol "evita a ressaca, mantente bebado" something like "void hangover, stay drunk" every village has a chronic drunk! Maybe now the biggest problem is alcool, not heavy drugs. Why do you think police stop people at 9am and force them to do an alcohol test? They are drinking since 6am!

Regarding your ISP. Your target is people in a rural area? In one of the most less dense population area in Portugal? I will be waiting for the pricing. Good Luck.

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by richrichardsson on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:20AM (#24718838)
> And if you find someone "drunk" at 9am you bet he is drunk

People "gouching out on smack" do not look like they are drunk, so I think you're correct.

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by adamcharnock on Thursday October 08, 2020 @10:06AM (#24719186)
I stand corrected. It's good to hear from another HNer in the region.
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by mping on Monday October 19, 2020 @04:47AM (#24824414)
Best of luck on your ISP venture, hope the bureaucracy isn't too much to handle
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by galfarragem on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:25AM (#24718075)
Nitpicks. Prices are good (specially outside of large cities) but I believe that "Coffee is $0.15" is a typo. A coffee will hardly ever cost you less than 0,5€. And $0,7 is for a 200ml beer not a pint.

> most businesses prefer to deal with the foreigners.

Businesses prefer to deal with costumers able to pay more (or quicklier) for the same services/products.

(edited - typo)

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by geocar on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:57AM (#24718275)
> Nitpicks. Prices are good (specially outside of large cities) but I believe that "Coffee is $0.15" is a typo. A coffee will hardly ever cost you less than 0,5€. And $0,7 is for a 20ml beer.

20ml is a very small amount of beer. Maybe you meant something else?

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by jorge-d on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:14AM (#24718389)
Yes he meant 20 cl, which is called a "Fino" (or "imperial" depending on the region)
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by paulific on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:15AM (#24718391)
Microbrewery? ;-)
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by hypnotist on Thursday October 08, 2020 @06:36AM (#24717816)
starting ISP - that is very cool! What about Portuguese language ? do you need to able to speak to be accepted there ?
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by sergiosgc on Thursday October 08, 2020 @10:42AM (#24719495)
In urban settings, most Portuguese natives 50 or younger speak English (fluency varies, naturally). I can't really speak for rural areas. In order to integrate socially, however, you'll find it's easier if you speak Portuguese -- i.e. if planning to stay for a few years, learning the language is a good investment.
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by JetSpiegel on Friday October 09, 2020 @07:25PM (#24735425)
> - The main public opinion driver for both the needle exchange programs and the decriminalization was a _massive_ Heroin epidemic

There were politicians that publicly spoke about their personal experiences. Others that had family members that were caught up with it.

It was a widespread issue across all classes, not just the poor.

Here's a recent interview about one of the main drivers of this policy (in Portuguese).

https://www.perguntarnaoofende.pt/pno/joao-goulao

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by varispeed on Thursday October 08, 2020 @04:59AM (#24717261)
> which lead to an HIV, Hepatitis B/C, AND Tubercolosis epidemic

It seems like these problems are not directly caused by the drug, but by the fact users cannot buy clean medical grade with a safe method of administration. Portugal model doesn't seem to address that, but only makes consumption slightly more "comfortable" to the users.

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by base on Thursday October 08, 2020 @05:19AM (#24717366)
Portugal have needle exchange programs and places with health practitioners for people to shoot drugs, this last point was very controversial when it was implemented. Nowadays there are even mobile sites for this: https://idpc.net/alerts/2019/07/inside-portugal-s-first-mobi...
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by varispeed on Thursday October 08, 2020 @06:11AM (#24717686)
That is helpful, but even with a clean needle they will administer something possibly contaminated anyway. Good program would also give out medical grade clean heroin like they do in Switzerland. Clean heroin is relatively safe contrary to popular opinion. This removes the dealers from that segment of the market or at least severely reduces the sales volume.
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by howlgarnish on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:21AM (#24718047)
Needle exchanges are more about preventing multiple people from using the same needle, which is an excellent way to transmit diseases like hepatitis, HIV, etc.
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by varispeed on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:29AM (#24718098)
Yes this is helpful in that way, but call me cynical - without removing the market from the hands of criminals, what it does is ensures that the consumer will be a paying client a little bit longer. But if a dealer messes up and mixes the Fentanyl unevenly, the clean needle won't help much.
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by at_a_remove on Thursday October 08, 2020 @08:29AM (#24718489)
Dealers are typically not cutting their products with HIV or hepatitis virii.
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by varispeed on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:44AM (#24719032)
They cut drugs with various substances to increase volume and / or perceived strength, and that can cause health issues just as dangerous or even death by accidental overdose. In fact the number of overdose deaths have increased in Portugal since that policy has been implemented. Another flaw of this policy is that when users don't have to spend money on paraphernalia, they will have more money to spend on drugs. So I would say this is not about safety of the consumers, but to protect Portugal's healthcare system. It is easier and cheaper to deal with a dead overdosed consumer than a consumer who caught HIV.
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by pessimizer on Thursday October 08, 2020 @10:44AM (#24719507)
> They cut drugs with various substances to increase volume and / or perceived strength, and that can cause health issues just as dangerous or even death by accidental overdose.

This is true, but you're saying something different than what you started off saying.

I agree with you that the government should be supplying heroin to addicts, and if you're decriminalizing drug usage, there's no reason that you shouldn't be doing this. A doctor having the ability to monitor addicts under their care would give us the means to keep them happy and productive, and to make sure they can get off the drug when they're willing to risk the effort.

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by varispeed on Thursday October 08, 2020 @11:00AM (#24719691)
Many people who take drugs lead happy and productive life and use them as a tool and this approach doesn't seem to address why people reach for drugs in the first place. That's why I believe this policy is dishonest.
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by rsynnott on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:02AM (#24718720)
> That is helpful, but even with a clean needle they will administer something possibly contaminated anyway

In general, the main drug-related vector for disease is needle sharing. Most pathogens wouldn't survive long in the actual heroin, and it's not clear how they'd get there in the first place.

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by varispeed on Thursday October 08, 2020 @11:24AM (#24719961)
This is true, but many contaminants can still cause serious diseases and uneven distribution of active substances may lead to accidental overdose. Also unknown composition of the "drug" can cause unexpected interactions with other drugs people may be taking at the same time. There also seems to be no proof that drop in prevalence of those diseases caused by needle sharing actually is caused by this program and not by cultural change and education that maybe changing the method of administering the drug is "healthier" (e.g. consumers started to prefer smoking over injecting).
Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by glaberficken on Thursday October 08, 2020 @06:09AM (#24717671)
>"...healthcare is universally free in Portugal..."

In principle only.

In practice: how much have you spent on dentist bills in the past year?

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by CraigJPerry on Thursday October 08, 2020 @06:37AM (#24717819)
Child birth. Heart attack. Broken leg. Brain tumour. Flu.

It’s free in practice.

Re:Pointers from Portugal on Addiction and the Drug War by glaberficken on Thursday October 08, 2020 @07:31AM (#24718105)
Yes, most things are free in practice. Just so happens that something critical for day to day general health and well-being (dental health) is not.

It's not by accident that Portugal has oral health on par with the poorest Eastern European countries.