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Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by newyankee on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @09:17AM (#24707841)
Given that presumably Tesla's goal is to take battery costs down by 56% in 3 years from (108 - 140 $/kwh) to (50 - 70$/kwh) and widely held consensus is that 100$/kwh is the price point at which EVs are no brainer on upfront costs with ICE cars, i feel that there is a long way to go.

However, i think any successful real world demo starting with niche applications will help. We need all the battery tech to succeed.

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by DennisP on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @09:44AM (#24708087)
Electric airplanes need significantly better energy density.
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by 0xffff2 on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @10:49AM (#24708836)
"significantly" sells it short. Electric airliners need a couple orders of magnitude of improvement to even come close to viability.
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by Retric on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @11:24AM (#24709188)
Jet engines are significantly less efficient than electric engines so it’s lithium ion has 1/20th the useful Specific Energy at takeoff, though that gets worse as the flight progresses and fuel is burned or batteries age. On the other hand for ultra long range flights electric jets can cruise as higher altitudes which makes up for some of that. Also having 1/3 the 15,000 km range of some aircraft is perfectly viable.

IMO, Due to cost savings electric aircraft would likely become common at around 4x the current Specific Energy and fully take over at about 10-20x.

PS: Energy density is fine for lithium ion, the issue is energy per weight (Specific Energy) not energy per volume (Energy Density).

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by jakehop on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @01:32PM (#24710595)
An airplane will weigh less, the more jet fuel it uses. A battery powered airplane does not have an obvious way of losing weight in this manner, further limiting range.

Talking about 5.000 km is hard: While it won't get you from London to New York without some post-crash landing swimming, the current largest electric plane can fly ~100 miles at around 114mph, with 9 passagers.

I see that you take the laws of physics into account, but allow me to state this for the sake of the conversation: In order to replace jet fuel, we must match what we could call it's useful energy density (energy/kg * efficiency). While electric engines are probably more efficient, we're still up to 2 orders of magnitude away – that's requires a 50-100x improvement of energy density, while maintaining the needed high discharge characteristics, developing a sufficiently efficient electric jet engine and taking into account the increased weight. All at a price where people won't need to save up for years, in order to visit their families.

While I hope to see a zero emission future in my lifetime (actually a negative-emissions might be needed for at time), I feel like putting batteries into airplanes is a bit too much "Silicon Valley Sophism" – shoving the same solution at each and every problem, rather than figuring out what the core of the problem is.

I do love electric cars, but they are not for everyone('s budget). Perhaps the solution is synthetic fuels, combined with carbon capture and a cheap, clean and reliable energy source, such as nuclear power. I know this isn't exactly cheap or readily available either, but it seems like one would bypass a lot of the issues above, by focusing on the source of the problem: Non-neutral use of carbon fuels.

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by simonebrunozzi on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @02:10PM (#24710979)
From what I've read, ONE order of magnitude higher density is all we need for commercially viable eletric airplanes. We don't need an additional 10X, as you are suggesting.
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by Robotbeat on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @05:18PM (#24712856)
No they don’t. 400Wh/kg is sufficient when combined with structural efficiency and aerodynamic improvements. Over 1000 mile range should easily be feasible there in a new, clean sheet design incorporating best of everything and a 400Wh/kg battery.
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by andai on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @06:21PM (#24713482)
Serious question, would nuclear powered planes be viable? As far as energy density goes it seems pretty hard to beat!

https://xkcd.com/1162/

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by wobbegongz on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @07:19PM (#24713978)
Yes, both USA and Soviet experimented with nuclear powered planes during the 60s. The problem was how to shield the pilots from radioactivity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear-powered_aircraft

They also experimented with nuclear powered drones. https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/research/a33565112...

And Russia now claims to have a nuclear engine that can make a cruise missile fly for days. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9M730_Burevestnik

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by LargoLasskhyfv on Thursday October 08, 2020 @11:52AM (#24720303)
What if there were a reactor type which would require no, or much less shielding because all it emits is mostly hard ultraviolet light?

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_lightbulb

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by ben_w on Friday October 09, 2020 @08:53AM (#24729390)
I read that as using UV light to transfer energy to the working fluid, not that the actual nuclear reaction itself would be any different to any other nuclear reactor.
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by LargoLasskhyfv on Friday October 09, 2020 @10:43AM (#24730351)
Even when it reads "It would be operated at temperatures of up to 22,000°C where the vast majority of the electromagnetic emissions would be in the hard ultraviolet range." ?

edit: Sigh.. disregard, cf. https://web.archive.org/web/20080109011832/http://www.nuclea...

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by hackerfromthefu on Friday October 09, 2020 @02:26AM (#24727375)
Another problem is crashes or accidents
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by choeger on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @10:40AM (#24708713)
I don't know. Sure, if you can build batteries with the energy density of gasoline, you can build an electric plane with them. But is this really necessary?

Right now, we have relatively large, relatively fast, jet planes. Do we need that size and that speed to be commercially viable? Could we also run a larger fleet of smaller, more automated planes or helicopters? If there was no kerosene left by tomorrow morning, would there really be no alternative?

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by kokey on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @12:27PM (#24709826)
I probably have a skewed perception because I play with small fpv drones, but any weight saving like this usually opens up a whole world of new possibilities we never bothered to imagine before. This will certainly help existing delivery drones and drone taxi projects.
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by pjc50 on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @11:52AM (#24709444)
> If there was no kerosene left by tomorrow morning

I suspect the medium term solution would be to make some, either from other hydrocarbons or plant cellulose, or even by the US Navy seawater CO2 to liquid fuel process.

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by djrogers on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @11:11AM (#24709057)
> I don't know. Sure, if you can build batteries with the energy density of gasoline, you can build an electric plane with them. But is this really necessary?

Only if you value overseas travel... It currently takes ~16 hours to fly from SF to Singapore depending on weather. Any longer, and you're going to see a lot of that travel disappear.

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by onion2k on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @11:17AM (#24709123)
Only if you value overseas travel... It currently takes ~16 hours to fly from SF to Singapore depending on weather. Any longer, and you're going to see a lot of that travel disappear.

It takes that long because it's more efficient to do it in a single flight. Taking off and landing are a massive waste of time and fuel. If we only had short range planes people would change their destinations in some cases or they'd plan layovers as part of the trip. I don't think you'd see that many people just stop travelling abroad.

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by Animats on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @02:51PM (#24711352)
In the era when planes had to do that, there was not much trans-oceanic travel. The Pan Am flying boats, the "China Clippers", went from San Francisco to Hawaii to Midway to Wake to Guam to Manila to Macao to Hong Kong. It took a week.[1]

[1] https://tripsintohistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Clip...

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by tomalpha on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @12:11PM (#24709640)
Indeed. Though like in the olden days the large number of stopovers might cut down demand somewhat:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_Route#Multiple_stops

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by nopzor on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @06:28PM (#24713554)
it's not really true that ultra long range direct flights (eg. from sfo to sin) are more efficient.

the efficiency gain by not taking off and landing is eaten away by the efficiency loss of having to carry so much fuel (which also comes at the expense of useful load..)

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by dreamcompiler on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @01:50PM (#24710772)
It's not difficult to imagine in-flight recharging from something like a KC-135 running a big fat generator. If you're recharging capacitors, connect time would probably be a minute or two.
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by Gh0stRAT on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @02:39PM (#24711246)
I'm not so sure about that being an acceptable solution for civilian transportation… Even assuming automation can eliminate the risks and training overhead associated with in-flight refueling, there are still be some major hurdles that would need to be addressed before this could be considered a viable solution. The 3 big ones that come to mind are:

What happens if the KC-135 misses the rendezvous? What if the charging port fails to work for some reason? What about the carbon footprint of these airborne generators?

Plus, now you have the weight of the capacitors to carry around all the time, further reducing the effective payload.

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by tatersolid on Thursday October 08, 2020 @12:00AM (#24715622)
> What happens if the KC-135 misses the rendezvous? What if the charging port fails to work for some reason?

The same thing that happens today with combustion aircraft: the crew makes an emergency landing if they can, or bails out and waits for a Seahawk to pick them up.

This actually happens with fuel-driven aircraft regularly today.

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by DennisP on Thursday October 08, 2020 @09:59AM (#24719136)
Bailing out seems a bit problematic for passenger aircraft.
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by ReptileMan on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @11:17AM (#24709125)
I kinda enjoy the ability to get to the other side of the world in 24 hours.
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by bfieidhbrjr on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @02:34PM (#24711203)
> if you can build batteries with the energy density of gasoline

Actually significantly worse than that. A plane gets lighter the longer it flies, especially at takeoff when everything is at max thrust. A battery becomes more and more dead weight the longer you fly.

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by bitdotdash on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @03:35PM (#24711827)
I wonder if this could be solved for with detachable take-off booster. Gets you up in the air, then returns to the airport.
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by ginko on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @05:16PM (#24712836)
Couldn't you just start with a cable that detaches and is pulled back to the landing strip?
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by mPReDiToR on Thursday October 08, 2020 @06:27AM (#24717768)
A "third rail" along the runway and a dodgem/Scalextric type conductor springs to mind.
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by noodlesoups on Thursday October 08, 2020 @05:22AM (#24717382)
Just make sure it detaches properly, you don't wanta a dozen wire to yank you in mid ascend
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by Gibbon1 on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @03:04PM (#24711489)
I keep seeing numbers around 500 miles range floated for 8-12 passenger electric aircraft.

Fire up google earth and start drawing 500 mile radius circles around metro areas.

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by ashtonkem on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @01:20PM (#24710462)
You probably don’t need gasoline density equivalents for short haul flights, but we’re still really far off from where we need to be.
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by baq on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @11:19AM (#24709148)
the problem with jets is stratospheric water vapor in addition to all the CO2 they emit (quite a lot in itself).
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by specialist on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @12:22PM (#24709769)
FWIW, I just learned about "Wright's Law" via Sandy Munro. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experience_curve_effects
Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by samatman on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @05:54PM (#24713203)
Electric vehicles are right at the bottom of the curve for "amount of money consumers are willing to spend for more energy per gram/ml".

I'd expect this kind of tech to debut in premium phones and laptops, and work its way down.

Re:Vertically aligned carbon nanotubes triple the density of... by baybal2 on Wednesday October 07, 2020 @11:03AM (#24708975)
Wholesale LFP price in China been <$100/kwh for quite a few years, yet...