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Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by inglor on Saturday October 03, 2020 @12:57PM (#24673241)
Why assume it's a 0 sum game or try to regulate how people enjoy their free time?

Isn't it much more effective to simply force ships to have much fewer emissions or offset them?

Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by bserge on Saturday October 03, 2020 @01:07PM (#24673310)
I've had these debates way too many times. I am not getting into another one.

My stand is, burning dirty oil for people's enjoyment to the detriment of the oceans and the air is [insert bad words].

I said, use sailboats for leisure tourism. Plenty of fun.

At this rate, we'll fuck up the planet enough that governments will take the power in their hands and everyone will be forced to help with the cleanup.

If we don't do something now, out of our own volition, we're all going to end up with much more authoritarian governments and limits on individual freedoms. It's either that or civil wars. No way around it.

Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by chrisseaton on Saturday October 03, 2020 @01:09PM (#24673329)
I don't know anything about you, but I guarantee you do something for fun that I could point to and say it's 'burning dirty oil for your enjoyment to the detriment of the world and the air'.
Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by bserge on Saturday October 03, 2020 @01:15PM (#24673375)
Sure, everyone does. Cruise ships are one thing that can be completely removed with great effect for the environment and it will be a minor inconvenience for the people who used to pay for them.

Yes, many will take planes and trains and cars, any of which will still pollute less than cruise ships.

There is no downside to banning them and using sail ships (aside from a potential loss of revenue).

Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by WalterBright on Saturday October 03, 2020 @02:16PM (#24673734)
> no downside

Sailing ships have unreliable schedules, for one.

Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by petre on Saturday October 03, 2020 @01:51PM (#24673576)
Don't worry. The health crisis will regulate things better than any government. I'd sail for leisure as well because I'm quite crowd-adverse and don't like the idea of a floating hotel, especially after what happened on Diamond Princess. However, you can't really blame elderly people going on a cruise. Also going to Anctarctica is also quite challenging on a small sailboat. I'd like to see solar + nuclear powered comercial ships with tamper proof reactors.
Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by TeMPOraL on Saturday October 03, 2020 @02:24PM (#24673776)
> However, you can't really blame elderly people going on a cruise.

This sentence made me think... how many people are toiling hard under the promise that, when they amass enough wealth and eventually retire, then they'll have time to jump on cruise ships and see the world? Isn't this the tail end of the American dream? No surprise then that there isn't a widespread consensus to kill the cruise shipping industry - as you have people burning the best years of their life chasing a carrot, only for you to propose to take the carrot away.

At the very least, the cruise ship operators should be made to internalize the entire environmental cost of their pollution. The best way to do that would be through taxing bunker fuel, but that may cause mayhem with the entire shipping industry, so I'd initially be fine with just a large and very much unfair tax on cruise operators. Not enough to take away the carrot, but enough to make it appropriately expensive, relative to the environmental costs. Now is probably the best time for that - the companies are devastated by COVID and won't have money to bribe^H^H^H^H^Hlobby against such measures.

Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by petre on Monday October 05, 2020 @01:30AM (#24684795)
I agree about the elderly, not about the bans. It's their decision, let them enjoy it. The market could change anyway, especially after the health crisis. Cruise ships scrapped? Good riddance.

It's quite hard to tax them. They sail under Panama flags in international waters and are registered in some country most people haven't heard of. They can only be taxed while at anchor in a port under some jurisdiction. They'll happily refuel in Jamaica, Cuba or Haiti if fuel is taxed in the US. We've seen that in Europe with truckers and fuel taxes in some jurisdictions.

Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by aeternum on Saturday October 03, 2020 @01:54PM (#24673593)
Why single out ships? Maybe we could just tax emissions such that the activity does not matter.
Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by bserge on Saturday October 03, 2020 @02:06PM (#24673661)
Because otherwise it's just "we need to do something about that" handwaving and it gets nowhere. So, single out cruise ships - a straightforward way to reduce global pollution by a good degree with minimal effects on the individual.

The problem with ships is that once they enter international waters they can do whatever they want.

Which is exactly what they do, burn bunker fuel outside territorial waters and switch to cleaner fuel when they approach a country (because they are forced to).

There is simply no enforcement outside territorial waters, and if anyone tried to, they'd be immediately condemned by everyone else.

Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by aeternum on Saturday October 03, 2020 @05:33PM (#24674825)
Why don't we ban container ships?

Is it possible that you are a member of a group of individuals that do not enjoy nor participate in cruises and therefore do not give anything up by calling for their ban? You can feel good about it without personally sacrificing anything and instead forcing others to make that sacrifice.

How would you feel if it were the inverse and others were calling for a ban on an activity you enjoy?

Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by ornornor on Sunday October 04, 2020 @12:28AM (#24676532)
I might enjoy eating babies, that doesn’t make someone claiming this practice should be banned on ethical grounds wrong.
Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by aeternum on Sunday October 04, 2020 @01:43PM (#24680782)
In many countries people eat young lamb or veal, some consider it acceptable and others don't.

It is very easy to call for a ban on something that you personally do not enjoy because you lose nothing. In fact a majority of the world's population likely does not enjoy cruising, just as a different majority does not enjoy snow sports, water sports, car racing, motorcycles, horse racing, skydiving, rugby, rock climbing, etc..

There is some form of ethical or safety concerns for each of those but the world would be a very boring place if we banned them all.

Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by Jackim on Saturday October 03, 2020 @01:58PM (#24673619)
It's more efficient to remove the cause of emissions than to tax it and try to compensate for it. All carbon emissions should be taxed, but some things should just not be allowed.
Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by WalterBright on Saturday October 03, 2020 @02:18PM (#24673744)
Tax the purchase of bunker fuel for its emissions content. Cruise ships aren't going to drill for oil in international waters.
Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by dmurray on Saturday October 03, 2020 @02:36PM (#24673835)
Is burning bunker fuel at sea really a big problem? My understanding is that the impurities (sulphur mostly) in bunker fuel are bad for people to breathe and create smog, so they shouldn't be burned around population centres. The main greenhouse gas is carbon dioxide, and you produce roughly the same amount of that per watt of power no matter what hydrocarbon you burn.
Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by WalterBright on Saturday October 03, 2020 @04:50PM (#24674569)
Hydrocarbons are molecules that are various combinations of H and C atoms. The H burns to H2O, the C to CO2. A hydrocarbon with a greater quantity of H is going to emit less CO2 when burned.
Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by dmurray on Saturday October 03, 2020 @06:35PM (#24675186)
Sure, but H weighs 1/12 as much as C. Most of the fuel mass goes to CO2 no matter what you do: whether you slap on 1.5 H atoms or 3 for each C, it makes up a small part of the molecular weight.

Of course, it could be that the C-H bonds contribute much more to the energy released by burning the fuel than the C-C. But this doesn't seem to be case. Here's a paper in favour of switching to lighter fuels for ships: it argues that the total supply chain CO2 contribution would be higher (it takes energy to refine those fuels), but only by 1%.

I think that "bunker fuel is really bad and ships switching to lighter cleaner fuels is important for the environment" is a seductively easy but bad target for carbon reduction. There are way better places to spend our efforts.

[0] https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/pdf/10.3155/1047-3289.58.4.5...

Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by WalterBright on Saturday October 03, 2020 @11:50PM (#24676414)
> There are way better places to spend our efforts.

The easiest, most economically efficient, most productive way to do it is to tax the C content of fuels. Use the monies raised to subsidize green energy.

Banning is an indiscriminate club that does a lot of collateral damage.

Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by dmurray on Sunday October 04, 2020 @08:59AM (#24678706)
But that's exactly what wouldn't be suitable for reducing pollution from bunker fuel. Shippers would pay the same taxes as for burning kerosene or diesel, plus or minus a few percent, but they'd go with the cheaper option and cause huge sulphur pollution in port cities.

The regulations we have now (no high-sulphur fuels in cities, no leaded gasoline...) are better than taxing only CO2 emissions, even if they're not perfect.

Re:Aerial view of a cruise ship graveyard by WalterBright on Sunday October 04, 2020 @03:45PM (#24681734)
So do the obvious - tax the sulfur content of the fuels, too.

The problem with banning is its inflexibility. For example, let's say you have a bunker-fueled emergency generator for a hospital that you use only when the power goes out. The pollution it emits is negligible. But by banning bunker fuel, you'll have to replace the emergency generator, at considerable expense and environmental cost.

With taxes instead, you:

1. bunker fuel will only be used when there's high value for it, and you won't have to add a plethora of exemptions into the regulation

2. have a revenue center for the government instead of a cost center - revenue that can be used to subsidize green initiatives