News for hackers. Stuff that matters.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by ptero on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:03PM (#24640957)
The comment author does not advocate ignoring the world, he wants to separate his engineering work from politics and thus wants to look for employers who do not push a particular political program on him. Which seems a perfectly valid (and attractive to me) view.

You cannot ignore your dreams, your health, your family, social ills, the air quality, politics and a myriad of other things in the world around you. But if you focus on all of those all the time you will achieve nothing. Imagine a great inventor, scientist, engineer or artist working on his next idea. Do you really want to make him jump and go demonstrate for/against your list of hot button topics?

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by tshaddox on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:36PM (#24641316)
Wanting to separate engineering work from reality is precisely what Barrin92 is saying should not and can not be done. Engineering work isn't just some insulated game that gives you tokens to buy things you need in the real world. The engineering work is itself part of the real world.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by brightball on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:14PM (#24641746)
By that logic, you can't separate church and state either.

And that's to say that you can and you should.

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by tshaddox on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:28PM (#24641944)
Separation of church and state is nothing more than a limitation on the government, prohibiting it from establishing a national religion or inhibiting religious practice. It is not a claim that religion can never be discussed in government, or that government can never be discussed in religious practice.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by brightball on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:48PM (#24642203)
If you’re a government employee it’s highly discouraged to the point of official reprimand.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by krainboltgreene on Thursday October 01, 2020 @05:48AM (#24649148)
That's so hilariously incorrect as to be alarming.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by wellpast on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:59PM (#24641589)
I think this is all contextual to our times. We just have so much disagreement on what we are sure is moral/immoral.

If the different political sides had more balance, I think it'd make sense to permit a modest bit in the workplace.

But today the left is so sure of its position to the point where they think they are in the black & white moral right _and_ they are increasingly dominant and loud in our cultural institutions and many corporate institutions that it is substantially interfering with basic ability to think.

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by SpicyLemonZest on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:43PM (#24641399)
Everything is part of the real world. Would you go to a mattress company and demand that they make it harder for your political opponents to get a good night's sleep?
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by tshaddox on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:50PM (#24641474)
No, I wouldn't, but I don't know how that is relevant. If a mattress company refused to sell mattresses to gay people, I wouldn't do business with that mattress company, and I would also approve of employees of that mattress company taking part in political activism to oppose that practice.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by SpicyLemonZest on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:52PM (#24641501)
I guess I don't see how the response is relevant. If Coinbase refused to sell cryptocurrency to gay people, I'd be all in favor of employees and external political activists saying they should - and Coinbase agrees, they don't expect to be apolitical with respect to the actual work that they do.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by Apocryphon on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:50PM (#24641464)
Wouldn't be the first time a mattress company got involved in that space. Casper sponsors the Slate Political Gabfest podcast, or used to at least.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by eli on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:02PM (#24641619)
I dunno, but I bet in the long run the mattress company that allows internal debate outperforms one that silences it.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by SpicyLemonZest on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:06PM (#24641663)
I just don't see how yelling about complex and emotional social issues could help a company build good mattresses.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by pm90 on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:34PM (#24642023)
Because activism is more than yelling about complex and emotional social issues, even if that’s the way you perceive it.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by eli on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:44PM (#24642148)
Is there anything between yelling and forbidding all discussion?
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by SpicyLemonZest on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:01PM (#24642380)
To some degree. It's very possible for employees to have polite discussions over the lunch table about political topics, and to the extent Coinbase is trying to prohibit those discussions I'm against it.

Is there a way to have employees say e.g. "the company needs to endorse suchandsuch political slogan" or "the company needs to oppose suchandsuch candidate" without yelling? I don't think so.

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by exolymph on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:11PM (#24642506)
> Do you really want to make him jump and go demonstrate for/against your list of hot button topics?

Sadly for many people the answer to this is an unequivocal yes.

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by ryanisnan on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:37PM (#24641331)
This is impossible. When the very technology you work on is employed in entirely political ways (i.e. dragonfly), you cannot separate work from the world.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by coryfklein on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:06PM (#24641668)
Cash is a technology that is one of the biggest enablers of drug trafficking and child prostitution. Does this serve as an argument for employees of the Treasury Department (which prints and mints said cash) to engage in politics in the workplace?

Much of technology is agnostic to politics, and enables much evil and good alike. This does not, in my mind, serve as justification for technology creators to intertwine politics with the creation of said technology.

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by Apocryphon on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:09PM (#24641694)
Yes, if it will bring about more regulations and protections.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/treasury-plugs-gap-in-anti-mone...

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by pm90 on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:36PM (#24642046)
This is quite Amusing, because the treasury department is involved in efforts to prevent human trafficking: https://home.treasury.gov/news/featured-stories/combatting-h...
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by coryfklein on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:42PM (#24642126)
Which is a good and laudable thing! But you're talking about the place the Treasure Department has in advocating for political positions that are inline with it's mission. I'm talking about whether Bob the coin stamp machine operator holds responsibility for building a technology that is, in some cases, used for nefarious purposes.

Bob doesn't want to be accosted by Richard from accounting because he doesn't do enough to advocate for anti-money laundering political causes or senatorial candidates. Bob just wants to show up and do his job.

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by qchris on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:10PM (#24642487)
Hey, I've been writing on planning an article discussing some components of open-source and ethics, and I would really love to use a (variation) of your sentence. Would you mind if I did that, and if so, would you like me to include some form of direct attribution to you? You can find my email in my profile.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by paxys on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:51PM (#24641484)
While it isn't possible to separate engineering from politics in general, the sentiment is doubly hilarious when your goal is to enable a new global monetary system.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by tshaddox on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:55PM (#24641530)
The Coinbase blog post is directly self-contradictory. First it lists some things that they focus on in order to accomplish their mission. One of those is this:

> Enable belonging for everyone: We work to create an environment where everyone is welcome and can do their best work, regardless of background, sexual orientation, race, gender, age, etc.

Then, just a few short paragraphs later, they list things that they focus minimally on, because they are "not directly related to the mission." One of those things is this:

> Broader societal issues: We don’t engage here when issues are unrelated to our core mission, because we believe impact only comes with focus.

It doesn't get more blatantly contradictory than that.

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by ironSkillet on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:12PM (#24641729)
I think what they're saying is that will work to make the environment within the company as welcoming as possible. However, they will not try and solve that problem for society at large. Although you may disagree with the approach, it doesn't seem contradictory to me.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by tshaddox on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:23PM (#24641878)
And again, it's a false notion to think that those are two separate things. You can't, to use example that I hope is obvious, support making your work environment welcoming to everyone regardless of sexual orientation, while also refusing to oppose or even discuss a political movement or politician who would throw people in jail for having a certain sexual orientation.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by sokoloff on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:09PM (#24642481)
While I would find that political position abhorrent, I wouldn't expect and certainly not demand that my company issue a specific public statement denouncing it.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by tshaddox on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:14PM (#24642536)
You don’t need to expect or demand that, although I certainly would. The problem is when a company claims they care about that issue as part of their mission, but then prohibits employees from taking a stand on that issue or even discussing that issue.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by garbageslam on Thursday October 01, 2020 @03:33PM (#24655263)
Why is that a problem?

People can care about an issue without taking a stand or even discussing the issue.

This "with us or against us" attitude is precisely what makes it difficult to get along with activists.

The only reason it is "a problem" is that it doesn't conform to the long term goals of the activists. The company needs to have goals that are separate from those of the activists in order to survive.

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by paxys on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:23PM (#24642646)
What about being able to discuss that internally with coworkers? Because the company prohibits that as well.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by sokoloff on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @03:26PM (#24642672)
My wager is they de facto won't prohibit any discussion between consenting and mutually interested coworkers that doesn't negatively impact their work output, which seems "fair enough" to me.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by paxys on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @04:16PM (#24643298)
So you'd be okay working for a company with policies you don't agree with because "they probably won't enforce them"?
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by fivre on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:01PM (#24641606)
Are there no lines the op, or you, would not cross in the pursuit of your engineering work? Perhaps you're okay with Coinbase's mission specifically, but are you saying that you're okay with _literally anything_ in the pursuit of good engineering?

Perhaps you and the OP would be quite happy, say, writing code for a lab that makes novel fentanyl analogues for the express purpose of including them in black-market knockoff heroin powder, which in turn leads to a number of deaths (accurately cutting in your microgram-potent meds is hard, and sometimes your downstream supply chain makes a hit that's got too high a fentanyl analogue/cut material ratio, go figure!), or an industrial system that captures unsuspecting babies to then drown them, strip their flesh, and harvest their valuable bones (not really that realistic in our normal reality, but per http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=25967.0 it works great in Dwarf Fortress! or it did, anyway, until that got patched out because of said bone harvester), or hell, let's just Godwin on it and say you'd be perfectly happy writing automation tooling to make Treblinka 10% more efficient.

The respondent, whom you so readily chastise, has a quite valid point that we can't separate our engineering work from "politics" (ethics, really, but there does seem to be a side in this debate that prefers to say "politics", since that evokes more the admittedly annoying horse race electoraliasm and doublespeak-driven world of actual politics and takes away from the thrust of the issue, which is ethics, which happen to often overlap with politics but are very much their own thing) ever. That's an important thing to recognize, especially in an industry that has persistent issues with laying ethics aside in pursuit of "great inventions" (let's be pragmatic, it's mostly in pursuit of profit, with some good inventions as an occasional byproduct).

What I think the respondent may be getting at is that there is a significant population in the industry that probably does have some lines they won't cross, but is privileged and willing to cross a great many lines that won't affect them personally. You perhaps think that's a laudable stance, and you can hold that opinion if you wish, but you should do so with the recognition that there are a number of people that will see that less as a commitment to honorable professional detachment and more as a willingness to trod over the rights and wellbeing of the less fortunate so long as it doesn't injure you immediately. I'd argue that it's important thing to at least consider in an industry that often speaks of changing the world for the better--perhaps that was more it drinking the consultant kool-aid about what millenials value in their work and deciding it needed to work that into messaging, if not action, but hey, if it wants to say that, it ought to put its money where its mouth is.

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by toiletfuneral on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:20PM (#24641146)
This response is mis-characterization and is acting in bad faith, no one in this thread is asking for forced demonstrating. That's not actually a thing that's happening.
Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by ardy42 on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:55PM (#24641532)
> The comment author does not advocate ignoring the world, he wants to separate his engineering work from politics and thus wants to look for employers who do not push a particular political program on him. Which seems a perfectly valid (and attractive to me) view.

A lot of engineering work is inherently political. For instance, an engineer designed the gas chambers at Auschwitz and by doing his engineering work he supported the politics of the holocaust since his work and those politics are inseparable. In most cases, the connection is not so obvious and clear cut, but it's still there.

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by Zak on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @02:15PM (#24641769)
> he wants to separate his engineering work from politics

So did Wernher von Braun. I've intentionally selected the most extreme example that came to mind readily to illustrate the point: designing rockets for the Nazis to be built by slaves and used to carry bombs to kill civilians has moral and political implications. It's reasonable to judge von Braun for knowingly participating in atrocities even if his only interest was in rocket science. It's not possible to separate the engineering from the politics.

Cryptocurrency has political consequences, though they're not as obvious as those of ballistic missiles. For a company to work on cryptocurrency trading and pretend to be apolitical is disingenuous because if the company is successful, its actions will have a political impact. I'm inclined to think that anyone engaging in acts with political consequences should be proactive about what those consequences will be. Most technological change comes with the potential for political consequences.

Of course, there's engineering work that's less political. Making incremental improvements to the efficiency of widely-used infrastructure is usually fairly neutral; it's good for everyone, but doesn't really change the balance of power.

Re:Coinbase offers exit package for employees not comfortabl... by Barrin92 on Wednesday September 30, 2020 @01:25PM (#24641202)
>Do you really want to make him jump and go demonstrate for/against your list of hot button topics?

Yes I do and countless of scientists and artists do exactly that, which is why a lot of them ended up being subject to McCarthyism paranoia at one point or the other. Brilliant scientists, more than anyone else maybe, need to engage the political world to understand what influence what they built has on it. Technologists being painfully unaware of the political ramifications of their work, if anything, got us to where we are right now.

It's no coincidence that the politically detached scientist is the archetypical citizen of autocratic countries. The technologist who does not care for politics is today, the most sought after person in China.