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Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Monday September 28, 2020 @03:21AM (#24613877)
TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation. TikTok also has history of recording telemetry that’s extremely alarming.

Look into what is mined. Look into how algorithms get optimized to influence behavior. See a recent paper on this with using social media to shut down a power plant. Memetic warfare is real and it’s been going on in cyberspace for a while now. Every single bit of information is manipulation.

Every social network is a memetic warfare piece and TikTok is a primary target.

Lol at the downvoting. Bunch of brainwashed people here already.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by altacc on Monday September 28, 2020 @05:15AM (#24614627)
> TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation.

You don't have to look far to know this hypothesis won't stand up to any scrutiny. Not only are TikTok users typically in the age range less likely to vote, but everyone is susceptible to propaganda and lies. There is a lot of US produced propaganda out there aimed at the older generations which is being lapped up by a public thirsty for negative partisanship and divisive rhetoric.

If the Tiktok generation has been undermined, then it's by the older generations who benefited from more favorable situations, grabbed the wealth and power for themselves, pulled the ladder up and now refuse to see how any of this is an issue and will fight to maintain an unequal situation as long as it favors them.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:09AM (#24614989)
Not voting is a behavior pattern. Any behavior can be influenced by information propagation. The behavior of not voting has its own second order of effects. Also rooted in not believing in the structure one is participating in.

But that’s less my point, it’s more about the methods and attack vectors being an increased surface area now than ever before.

See here on why more so with TikTok generation: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24614815

Also: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management

“Chinese military scholars argue that their nation has a long history of conducting "psychological operations", a phrase that connotes important aspects of strategic deception and, to a certain degree, what the US Department of Defense portrays as perception management. For example, several articles published by the PLA's Academy of Military Science (AMS) journal Zhongguo Junshi Kexue, examine psychological warfare and psychological operations mainly as a deception-oriented function of military strategy.”

China are extremely skilled at psyops.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by jhardy54 on Monday September 28, 2020 @03:28AM (#24613943)
> TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation

Citation needed. Come on.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by 082349872349872 on Monday September 28, 2020 @04:33AM (#24614356)
My optimistic side says that if 60 second short videos were ideologically useful, CIA (or your favourite "They") would have weaponised them back in the 1960s[1].

My pessimistic side says they probably are, and maybe they even did.

https://www.thinkbox.tv/research/thinkbox-research/a-matter-...

[1] CIA didn't exist before 1947, so it would have to have been a different they for late 1920s, or even a different medium for "Remember the Maine!"

Bonus blog: https://joshuaspodek.com/north-korean-propaganda-our-adverti...

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by daniellarusso on Monday September 28, 2020 @09:21AM (#24616329)
What about four 30 second videos, and we show them between longer pieces of content (approx. 7 minutes)?

Would that influence anybody?

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Monday September 28, 2020 @04:37AM (#24614386)
Most definitely cia has a history with manipulating information. But at the point of information, how do you know what to even trust at any level? Evidence can be provided for anything. Information and disinformation all at the same time. This is only increasing - how will anyone be able to sort themselves out? I’m not so sure it’s possible.

https://youtu.be/IQPsKvG6WMI

Also 60 seconds of video is a ton of information. And it’s not just one video at a time. The total session aggregated per user per active user is way higher than that. These are behaviors where users use the app all day. Their entire worldview is based on the content within the social network experience.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by 082349872349872 on Monday September 28, 2020 @05:29AM (#24614732)
thoughts on sorting oneself out, albeit with difficulty:

seek variety of manipulated information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24600424

systematically analyse received information: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23897577

analyse especially source levels: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24459177

compare https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24403135 and remember we may have evolved big energy-guzzling brains in order to see through primate politics.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Monday September 28, 2020 @05:37AM (#24614780)
Thank you for contributing something thoughtful and relevant among the disheartening engagements.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by 082349872349872 on Monday September 28, 2020 @10:35AM (#24617031)
You're welcome. In connection with Bezmenov you may find the setting of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seventeen_Moments_of_Spring#Ba... interesting.

The Arthashastra recommends never acting on intelligence which hasn't been confirmed through at least three independent channels. Russian, swiss, and US secondary sources agree on the the underlying events of that scenario. I guess if the soviets really had had a highly-placed mole like Stierlitz, they could have done more, perhaps have been subtly encouraging top nazis first to prioritise ideology over pragmatism and then to get into speed, into the occult, and into the bunker.

However, I think a simpler explanation for the later events of 1945 would be: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23401308

====

Nighttime, 1944 Berlin: A ushanka-wearing man with skis and a parachute creeps silently along the hallway of an apartment building. He raps quickly on one of the doors.

A dishelved german in nightcap and house shoes opens after a few minutes.

"The eagles fly over the campfire. Repeat: the eagles fly over the campfire!" whispers the man in the hallway.

"Sorry," says the german, "I'm Otto Stierlitz the plumber, born 1904. You want Otto von Stierlitz the spy, born 1899. He lives up on the third floor."

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by yourapostasy on Monday September 28, 2020 @12:27PM (#24618378)
> if 60 second short videos were ideologically useful

A single 60 second video is not materially useful. But steady repetitive exposure to the same or similar messaging videos, is the foundation of TV advertising. There is likely some useful weaponization in there somewhere when the videos can be made without the assistance of a Madison Avenue crew and contract, and the consumers are pecking at the screen for more videos for long stretches of time like a pigeon in a psychology experiment.

Someone is going to try something to achieve controlled/directed opinion shaping with that kind of mass population behavior in a relatively regulation-free context compared to conventional centralized media. It has to be too tempting a centralized target to leave alone. Opinion shaping in these channels already is being attempted commercially. I'd like to hear from domain experts whether the metrics bear out such efforts actually work in the commercial sector, and if other domain experts in politics and defense think such experience warrants those sectors dabbling in making their own attempts.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @06:41AM (#24626066)
What you’re describing is exactly what’s going on. Cambridge Analytics was the smoking gun. That unraveled what sophistication of technology is being used to mine the internet and control sentiment.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by jhardy54 on Monday September 28, 2020 @11:22AM (#24617594)
I wasn't asking for a citation on whether three-letter agencies have weaponized social media. My issue was the"most malleable" language that belongs in a boomer comic rather than HN.
[dead]
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by CraigJPerry on Monday September 28, 2020 @04:08AM (#24614197)
So why not focus on Facebook? Why not do something meaningful, anything, with a company which is actually beholden to us law? Seems like targetting the biggest bang for buck would be a good place to start and THEN move on to others, no?
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Monday September 28, 2020 @04:10AM (#24614208)
It’s not mutually exclusive. Facebook is complicit. TikTok however is specifically a unique entity on its own. The demographics that use it are of critical interest to persuade additionally the data is directly at risk of being used as information warfare on increasingly elevated state cyber warfare tactics.

Follow the trail of information. Look into what’s going in across the stack hardware to software to networks. There’s a massive shift the past couple years.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by bkor on Monday September 28, 2020 @08:59AM (#24616143)
Facebook has been used for misinformation for a significant longer amount of time. Usually I get annoyed when people say something like "but what about X", but in this case it's a case of one company often being proven to manipulate, distort, etc (Facebook) vs a possibility that another company might do that.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @06:39AM (#24626058)
It’s not a possibility that another company is doing it, it’s about the state actors involved in doing it and otherwise unknown parties. In the end it’s no specific company that is responsible as the aggregate whole of all data available and the mechanisms to algorithmically control content is the sophistication of manipulation going on today.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by Scapeghost on Monday September 28, 2020 @05:28AM (#24614721)
Kettle, meet Google, Facebook, Microsoft, Twitter, Reddit, HN.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Monday September 28, 2020 @05:36AM (#24614772)
Indeed. Again there’s no question the attack vectors - however dismissing it as “kettle” or “them too” solves nothing and contributes to making the situation worse. Every comment I make is being downvoted yet there’s a critical point that’s either entirely dismissed as insignificant because others are doing it too or divorced from the ability to reason about information warfare and it’s implications. Oh well at least I tried.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by CraigJPerry on Monday September 28, 2020 @08:28PM (#24622822)
That’s not really what’s happening though. People are reading your premise that tiktok is a viable mechanism for influencing behaviour of its users, they are then pointing out far bigger examples of the ability you cite (Facebook, Google, Twitter) to which you say that’s different and we need to focus on tiktok because good reasons and not because china but i cant elaborate on good reasons.

At which point you’re being disingenuous.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @06:36AM (#24626017)
I never said to focus on TikTok. I’m saying they aren’t mutually exclusive at all.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by nicoburns on Monday September 28, 2020 @05:50AM (#24614876)
And particularly Instagram, Snapchat for the younger generation.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:11AM (#24615005)
And add every single site that has user generated content. If an algorithm can influence the behavior of the users, it’s being done at a state level.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by tester34 on Monday September 28, 2020 @05:34AM (#24614766)
What makes you think that zoomers are more likely to be influenced by social media than boomers or millenials?
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Monday September 28, 2020 @05:42AM (#24614815)
I don’t think they’re any less or any more other than the potential net vectors exposed. A boomer typically has traditional media as a source of information which shapes their world view. These channels have their own programming and narratives.

The zoomers are entirely on internet platforms which has a higher degree of manipulation. Every single person is mined against. Every single person gets optimized against. There’s more room for coercion based on the algorithmic use targeting demographics, and with the capability of individual optimization with machine learning tech.

If the typical “hacker” can launch a botnet with GPT2 and automate conversation and thread demographics based on interactions putting a “group” into a human in loop pattern with a goal ... imagine what state actors are doing.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by tester34 on Monday September 28, 2020 @05:55AM (#24614907)
>If the typical “hacker” can launch a botnet with GPT2 and automate conversation and thread demographics based on interactions putting a “group” into a human in loop pattern with a goal ... imagine what state actors are doing.

It scares me everytime I think about it how little $$ you need in order to reach e.g Reddit's front page.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SAkUs3urrg

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:12AM (#24615012)
Precisely.

It’s incredibly alarming what one can do with very little resources.

It’s downright horrifying or exciting when realizing what one can do with more than average resources.

In a way, that’s why I think the battleground is more “weird” than ever. It’s not just state actors, it’s factions of organized and convergent groups using memetic warfare. Some groups naturally converge towards each other. Take the anon’s, and various sects then overlay it with state actor and your smaller groups. Weird nameless stuff of massive influence and self organization.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perception_management

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by altacc on Monday September 28, 2020 @06:41AM (#24615203)
Depending upon if you're counting daily or regular usage, it looks like somewhere between 50+% (daily) and 75+% (occasional usage) of boomers are on facebook. The number for YouTube are a bit lower but not by much. For comparison, Tiktok, the Gen Z share is about 50%.

That is more than enough boomers being algorithmically swayed to alter an election. As has been shown (Cambridge Analytica, etc...) Facebook's segmentation arguably offers more power to target it's user than Tiktok does.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @06:36AM (#24626029)
It’s more boomers AND TikTok. The whole enchilada. Wave after wave. That’s the scary part.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by CraigJPerry on Monday September 28, 2020 @08:30PM (#24622843)
Replace “internet platforms” with television and you can run this same argument in the 1930s.

Heck, people made this argument for the printing press.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @06:38AM (#24626044)
Not the same at all given the sophistication of targeting allowed.

Yes, ads have always been this. But no, it’s never been like this.

All that data on the internet is being used to train algorithms to sway global sentiment. This emerges as bots, ads, interactions, content. It’s mind blowing.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by tester34 on Tuesday September 29, 2020 @04:02AM (#24625191)
The difference is, that foreign gov couldnt/cannot that easily broadcast TV programms in your TV nor press.
Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by amake on Monday September 28, 2020 @04:29AM (#24614323)
> TikTok is the generation that is most malleable to propaganda in a way that can undermine an entire generation

Unlike the Boomers, who most definitely haven't been brainwashed by right-wing propaganda on Facebook and Fox News?

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by dfischer on Monday September 28, 2020 @04:32AM (#24614345)
That’s already been known and within US soil. Now it’s the younger generation - it doesn’t make it mutually exclusive. If anything it shows the complete onslaught on all ends to undermine the stability of a nation in a way that’s never been possible before due to mass media and the internet. Broadcast is entirely unidirectional.

You’re absolutely correct that brainwashing happens on those mediums. It’s entirely interesting on one hand and entirely alarming on another. At this rate I’m not sure what the world at large can do given the technology out there to manipulate the populace. It leads to some very critical questions on how to exist.

Re:Judge temporarily blocks U.S. ban on TikTok downloads fro... by danmg on Monday September 28, 2020 @08:59AM (#24616138)
The Fox News generation seems the most malleable to propaganda.