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Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by unnouinceput on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:03AM (#24598501)
Really? The article's author pet peeve is that all software running on PinePhone start with "no guarantee" or "as is". Tell me, does Apple or Samsung or Microsoft take responsibilities for their shitty software? Because so far I've seen thousands of examples their software bricking / penetrated / ransom-ware etc, and not a single one of them was held accountable in court of law because of that. Apple is the most vertical company, heck they give their software for free and even that one doesn't come with guarantees.
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by Shared404 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:07AM (#24598524)
> The article's author pet peeve is that all software running on PinePhone start with "no guarantee" or "as is".

Not really. It's not even that it's a pet peeve, just them pointing out that projects need to keep safety in mind.

The author even mentions that they have contributed to PinePhone software.

Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by 0zymandiass on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:38AM (#24598751)
The issue is they're heavily implying it's something specific to PinePhone. I just scrolled through the legal notices on an iPhone, and they all have the exact same wording. Small components, such as the graphics libraries, the kernel, health data, the web browser, etc...

(not to mention they're just plain wrong about the battery/thermal not having hardware-level limits)

Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by Shared404 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:43AM (#24598793)
It doesn't read to me that the author is stating it's specific to pinephone, I read it as them just saying "hey guys, look out for this."

If they use the license wording to help get it across, well, I don't necessarily agree but as they state in the article:

> I'm trying to be a bit inflamatory here, to start the conversation.

Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by 0zymandiass on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:47AM (#24598820)
If the conversation is

> Software engineering does not put safety first

I'm 100% agreed.

If the conversation is

> The PinePhone has less quality control than Android/iOS

It's patently false

I would parse the article as the second, as it's referring to a specific phone throughout

Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by Shared404 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @10:26AM (#24599085)
I read it as the first, with a side of "We need to do this or FL/OSS hardware is going to look bad".

And I concur about the second being patently false. I would guess that it has more overall tbh.

Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by megous on Monday September 28, 2020 @10:06PM (#24623520)
>> The PinePhone has less quality control than Android/iOS

> It's patently false

PinePhone is just HW. Android/iOS is SW. Comparison doesn't make sense. Maybe compare PinePhone to Huawei Honor, or Xiaomi and their HW testing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tvRTY6sBPeE

Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by sangnoir on Saturday September 26, 2020 @06:43PM (#24602756)
> It's patently false

That's a strawman: author never compared to Android/iOS. What they did spell out,is that some of the code they found is unsafe (e.g. commented-out code to prevent false alerts, that was never being reimplemented in a safer way).

Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by SahAssar on Saturday September 26, 2020 @03:04PM (#24601292)
But the article does not mention that other phones might have similar challenges. If the article is about the whole industry then say that, if it is specific to the pinephone say that. Currently it's in that weird middle zone where it sounds like it is specific but all the facts would probably be applicable to many phones.
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by ziml77 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @07:40PM (#24603031)
The actual end product is provided by Apple with no warranties? I find that hard to believe. It makes sense that the OSS libraries they use wouldn't have warranties provided by their developers, but an issue in any of those becomes an Apple issue when it's shipped in their product as long as the issue has an impact on iOS.
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by thekyle on Sunday September 27, 2020 @12:49AM (#24604299)
I believe so, at least on the software side. For example, the macOS EULA states:

> C. TO THE MAXIMUM EXTENT PERMITTED BY APPLICABLE LAW, THE APPLE SOFTWARE AND SERVICES ARE PROVIDED “AS IS” AND “AS AVAILABLE”, WITH ALL FAULTS AND WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND

https://www.apple.com/legal/sla/docs/macOSCatalina.pdf

Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by megous on Monday September 28, 2020 @10:10PM (#24623541)
Sorry, but you're just plain wrong. So please don't spread false sense of security if you don't understand the issues, or the HW. You can read my other comments in this HN comment section for why.
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by linmob on Saturday September 26, 2020 @11:56AM (#24599714)
In particular the author maintains a kernel branch that is very advanced. Only a few projects use it though, and I once asked for why that was and was told that many patches in that authors kernel branch were unlikely to ever be mainlined and thus would not fit the approach of the distribution.
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by megous on Monday September 28, 2020 @09:59PM (#24623475)
That's not very precise. :) Many of my patches from my kernel get pulled to "pine64" kernel, including those that are not mainlinable. Distros that care about mainline just use Linus's tree already.

There are not many reasons not to use my kernel tree for Pinephone. I actually had reports from users that my multi-distro image that uses my kernel for 13 different pinephone distributions makes some distros run better.

I suspect that distro maintainers just think that pine64 community gitlab is somehow more official than any other pinephone kernel developer's tree on the internet, just from the name.

Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by linmob on Friday October 09, 2020 @11:19AM (#24730696)
Sorry if I misrepresented things.

After giving Purism some money for their "Fund Your App"-thingy today I decided to hit your donation button with a small, but recurring donation, because you deserve it for all your work – even if, sadly, my favourite distribution (DanctNIX Mobile) does not use your kernel and I am too lazy to change that on my end.

Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by unnouinceput on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:18AM (#24598598)
Not a single software ever written comes with guarantees. And the way he was phrasing sounded like PinePhone is a hot potato while everybody else is chill, while in reality everybody's the same in that regard.
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by Shared404 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:41AM (#24598779)
It doesn't read to me that the author is stating it's a hot potato, I read it as them just saying "hey guys, look out for this."
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by numpad0 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:38AM (#24598748)
Consumer protection laws nevertheless hold manufacturers liable. Small part of why doing hardware is hard.
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by sangnoir on Saturday September 26, 2020 @06:46PM (#24602768)
Would that be the manufacturer of the software or of the hardware? I don't think any court would blame manufacturers for incidents caused by user-modifications (installing 3rd-party firmware)
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by scarface74 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:19AM (#24598606)
We aren’t talking about malware. We are literally talking about software that can cause your phone to explode. Would you trust Apple to do more safety testing or random open source contributors? The article says that safety measures at the firmware chip level are disabled.
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by unishark on Saturday September 26, 2020 @11:25AM (#24599494)
> The article says that safety measures at the firmware chip level are disabled.

Those are the safety measures protecting the PMIC, not the battery. Is that temperature cutoff even low enough to matter before the battery is on fire?

It isn't clear that the software protections ever mattered anyway. If the kernel crashes, or is just charging while turned off, I sure hope it's still designed to be completely safe, and not a sudden explosion risk.

Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by megous on Monday September 28, 2020 @09:35PM (#24623326)
No, those are protections that kernel/bootloader need to configure inside PMIC (instead of disabling them, or leaving them at wrong default values) and then PMIC will protect the battery from overheating from charging. (which is one of many sources of heat) PMIC can also send interrupt to SoC when this control loop fails, and OS is free to handle it in some other way (for example by initiating normal system shutdown)

Then PMIC operates independently from the kernel, and configuration even persists when powered off/during reboots.

HW is designed to be safe, but SW has to cooperate, including userspace. (some daemon that will help policing the whole device, based on many different inputs and by controling things that affect heat production - like preventing the user from setting backlight at max, limiting modem RF output to something that doesn't need huge amounts of power, etc. etc.)

It's a complicated area.

Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by unnouinceput on Saturday September 26, 2020 @09:27AM (#24598660)
No, I would not trust Apple. That was my point, but seems you missed.
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by scarface74 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @10:11AM (#24598986)
You really think Apple, Google , or any real company would go out of their way to disable safety limits that would cause batteries to explode?
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by swiley on Saturday September 26, 2020 @10:42AM (#24599197)
After owning a couple android phones, real hardware manufacturers will do absolutely anything that improves profits.
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by scarface74 on Saturday September 26, 2020 @10:57AM (#24599304)
That’s why I specified Google. I would also put Samsung in that category (despite their exploding battery episode).
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by blihp on Saturday September 26, 2020 @01:34PM (#24600578)
He's simply pointing out that there needs to be some supporting work on the software side to minimize the risks. He's a pretty prolific hacker who's been around the Pinephone scene pretty much from the start and pointing out some things that were done as quick hacks to get things working in the early days that should be circled back on and fixed. I took his post more as a PSA than anything else.
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by gehsty on Saturday September 26, 2020 @10:49AM (#24599242)
Doesn’t iPhone have a warning when the phone over heats? And this phone has its cpu temperature monitoring disabled? I guess this is quite a specific example, but it seems you can trust Apple to not let your phone get so hot it melts, and you cannot trust pinephone.
Re:Let's talk about safety of Pinephone by RealStickman_ on Saturday September 26, 2020 @10:55AM (#24599291)
The iphone usually doesn't come with beta (or even alpha) software. An approach like this would not make sense for what the Pinephone aims at.