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Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by jakecopp on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:53AM (#24513707)
I think we should create a carbon/pollution tax and let the invisible hand of the market figure that out - it's too complex and there are so many side effects to adjusting things by brute force!
Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by londons_explore on Friday September 18, 2020 @02:58AM (#24513739)
A carbon tax implemented by a "world dictator" would work.

Any individual country implementing a carbon tax doesn't work because they put themselves at a big disadvantage, and goods and services go across country borders, taking with them almost-impossible to fairly calculate amounts of carbon.

The biggest things the world could do towards the "world dictator" approach would be:

* Have a consortium of countries implement a carbon tax, while taxing all inbound goods from countries that don't tax carbon.

* Adjust WTO rules to allow taxing imports based on estimated carbon content.

* Have the WTO decide which countries are "on track to meet carbon reduction targets". Allow taxes on imports from any country that isn't.

* Allow countries to "sue" another country for environmental damages. When they don't pay up, have a UN court able to threaten anything up to military action/takeover of the country's leadership to get payment.

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by redisman on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:22AM (#24517922)
You really only need the US to implement it as they're the consumer kings of the world. You can't just go sell a million SUV's to the Russians or Europeans or Ethiopians because you didn't want to pay the carbon tax in the US.
Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by fetbaffe on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:41AM (#24514016)
Problem is free trade & WHO itself, it is easier to go back to tariffs, by making things more expensive people will consume less, you can also increase quality & add requirements that a product must reparable.
Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by anon9001 on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:03AM (#24513773)
Does that actually work?

I would think the invisible hand of the market would re-route all that pollution to areas without the tax and the earth wouldn't see that much difference. It's not like they're going to stop selling oil if the EU and US agree to stop burning so much of it.

I agree it's complex, but I think carbon taxes might be part of the complexity. If we're going to start messing about with markets, we should outright ban the offending activity and regulate harshly. If we're going to apply tokenomics to the problem and pretend we fixed it until we're too old to care, that seems worse somehow.

Or we can just do nothing and hope technology saves us. That's what the actual bet is whether we like it or not.

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by mac01021 on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:51AM (#24514083)
There are very reasonable legislative proposals for a carbon tax (most preferably a "fee-and-dividend" [1]) which apply border adjustments to imported goods based on their carbon footprint.

This prevents the tax from simply causing the production of the goods to move overseas, and also encourages your country's trade partners to adopt a carbon tax themselves (so they'll be exempt from the carbon tariff).

Such a policy is not attempting to distort the market so much as simply price in an externality that is currently causing the market to perform poorly. It says simply that, while I am still allowed to hop on a 3000-mile flight to visit San Fransisco for the weekend, I need to compensate you and your family (and everyone else in the country) for the associated damages.

On the other hand, because human civilization is so complex, outright bans and strict regulations on emissive activity are inevitably going to be ham-handed and will either be ineffectual or else too onerous to be politically viable in a democracy.

[1] https://energyinnovationact.org/

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by edflsafoiewq on Friday September 18, 2020 @06:25AM (#24515010)
> apply border adjustments to imported goods based on their carbon footprint

The original question was how to find out the carbon footprint of goods.

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by mac01021 on Friday September 18, 2020 @10:59AM (#24517601)
That is true. But finding out those numbers is a much bigger problem for you or I than it is for a national government that can dedicate full-time research staff to producing sensible estimates.

So a benefit of this policy is that environmentally conscious private citizens no longer need to feebly grapple with such questions. You and I just optimize for personal expense and our own happiness while computing the carbon footprints of various things is the responsibility of institutions that actually have the resources to do it.

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by redisman on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:25AM (#24517963)
If a company is trying to obfuscate you could just have a high base rate you apply to them until they pass an audit to prove that they have an actually low footprint.
Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by tonyedgecombe on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:23AM (#24513906)
We do know that when the price of oil goes up people buy smaller and more economical cars and when it goes down they do the opposite.

If the market re-routed around that by building electric cars for instance then isn't that exactly what we want?

The nice thing about fossil fuels is it's fairly easy to identify and tax extraction. The problem is those industries will fight tooth and nail against any attempt to tax them.

On the other hand I do wonder what happens if carbon taxes become a substantial proportion of government revenues. Then there could be a tension between raising revenue and reducing consumption.

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by sjy on Friday September 18, 2020 @06:47AM (#24515138)
Measuring the effect of any tax is difficult, especially if it is hypothetical or only existed for 2 years, but Australia’s experience suggests that carbon taxes work (ie. they reduce carbon emissions). The biggest taxpayers were aluminium smelters, and the resources industry isn’t that mobile. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Australia
Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by CaptArmchair on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:53AM (#24514095)
The closest thing to a carbon tax is the current system of carbon emissions trading. Which has it's fair share of criticisms as well:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_emission_trading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_emission_trading#Critic... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_the_Kyoto_Protoco...

Carbon emissions trading does have an impact on carbon emissions, but it also detracts from the fundamental issue at hand - overreliance on fossil fuels in key industries and the need for a fundamental shift in our infrastructure in how energy is produced/consumed - while the costs, ultimately, get deferred elsewhere e.g. individual consumers.

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by Proziam on Friday September 18, 2020 @03:17AM (#24513871)
You can apply such a tax in various ways. If the company resides in the US, directly tax the company. If they are importing, tax the imported goods.

The worst thing that could happen would be some 'world dictator' making universal rules because then large companies could lobby one entity to shift the rules in their favor, and against ours.

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by dane-pgp on Friday September 18, 2020 @06:57AM (#24515205)
> The worst thing that could happen would be some 'world dictator' making universal rules

Surely the worst thing would be to set up a Prisoners Dilemma trap where individual countries have a huge incentive to betray all the other countries by abandoning this tax and attracting all the large companies in the world to come and pollute there.

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by Proziam on Friday September 18, 2020 @07:13AM (#24515317)
I'm not particularly concerned about a prisoner dillemma trap.

If one country did that, the immediate response from all other countries could simply be 'stop all trade with that country' or simply 'crank up the import taxes from them' until they shape up.

You also don't need anywhere near 100% agreement for this to be effective. A large company losing just a few key markets (US, Germany, UK, blah) could massively outweigh any benefit they could imagine by trying to game such a system.

Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by redisman on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:28AM (#24518012)
Just look at how much bs China is making the biggest corporations in the world jump through to be able to do commerce there. And what do the companies do - they adapt and grovel to get to that market. This is just one of those hyper-capitalist talking points that has never been proven true but keeps coming back up. If you do X then all the companies will leave. Like there are infinite other Chinas or Americas out there.
Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by ip26 on Friday September 18, 2020 @11:46AM (#24518247)
I like the elegance, but am growing to believe voters are simply unwilling to implement it. Mainly because "taxes" are eternally unpopular. It's possible that the best solution is actually the most implementable solution, rather than the most optimal solution.
Re:How can we, as web professionals, help to make the web mo... by johnisgood on Friday September 18, 2020 @04:19AM (#24514252)
The invisible hand is severely tied though.