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Re:Emacs is special regarding UIs by swiley on Thursday September 10, 2020 @06:03AM (#24430694)
I really honestly don’t like X11. I’ve poked around in the source a couple times and it confuses and scares me. I love the idea of moving entirely to just one graphics API and keeping the server simple.

Until wayland has decent performance though I don’t think I’ll ever switch. None of the apps I use are native (except possibly Firefox and some EDA tools but only if gtk is set up right?)

I thought my new phone would change my mind but surprisingly wayland is way way slower than X11 on it (running native gtk apps.)

Do keep in mind though that modern X11 doesn’t really do remote applications either and many aren’t letting the server manage the scene graph /widgets anyway so remote rendering would be very slow.

Re:Emacs is special regarding UIs by pmoriarty on Thursday September 10, 2020 @10:24AM (#24432634)
"I love the idea of moving entirely to just one graphics API and keeping the server simple"

I'm all for that, if and only if Wayland doesn't force me to give up what I consider to be important features of X.

Apart from the aforementioned remote access, a post titled "Why I'm not going to switch to Wayland yet"[1] goes in to some requirements that I also find important:

- Programmatic output configuration (xrandr, arandr, etc.)

- CLI clipboard access (xsel, xclip)

- Third party app launcher/window switcher (rofi, dmenu, albert, docky).

- Clipboard managers (parcellite, klipper, Gpaste, clipman, etc.)

- Third party screen shot/capture/share (shutter, OBS, ffmpeg, import, peek, scrot, VNC, etc.)

- Color picker (gpick, gcolor3, kcolorchooser)

- xdotool

That post is a couple of years old now, and I've been told in other HN threads on Wayland that some of this stuff is being worked on now, but until it's all there and it is actually mature and full-featured, I would not willingly switch to Wayland.

[1] - https://old.reddit.com/r/wayland/comments/85q78y/why_im_not_...

Re:Emacs is special regarding UIs by voldacar on Thursday September 10, 2020 @01:44PM (#24434707)
Performance too. Wayland adds at least one extra frame of latency and so is unsuitable for gaming and similar scenarios where one program needs to monopolize the framebuffer
Re:Emacs is special regarding UIs by pmoriarty on Thursday September 10, 2020 @02:10PM (#24434972)
Is that extra latency an inherent limitation of how Wayland is designed, or could future optimizations improve Wayland so that its performance is on par with X?
Re:Emacs is special regarding UIs by badsectoracula on Friday September 11, 2020 @10:43AM (#24443351)
Yes, it is an inherent limitation of Wayland because Wayland assumes a compositor and compositors run asynchronously to the applications that produce graphics (it could be possible to run them synchronously but then a single application could freeze the entire desktop - and even when it worked, you'd force all applications to sync with each other), meaning that what the compositor composes is based on the last complete frame it got (and while the compositor is composing its composition the application might as well be waiting, virtual thumbs twirling, with a new frame ready).

In comparison X11 doesn't assume a compositor - it can support composition, but doesn't require it. If there isn't a compositor, applications draw directly to the framebuffer and content appears as long as it is sent to the GPU (you may even send stuff faster than the monitor can keep up with - this is how you get tearing for example).

You can work around Wayland's limitation the same way you can work around it in Windows: get a monitor with faster refresh rates. As usual, better hardware is what fills the holes created by shoddy software (i got an expensive 165Hz monitor expecting to have a never-seen-before butter smooth experience on Windows - in reality what i got was more or less the experience i had back when i could disable the compositor in Windows 7).

Re:Emacs is special regarding UIs by voldacar on Friday September 11, 2020 @10:23PM (#24449317)
I have a 144hz monitor and I can still notice the extra wayland latency; not so much in regular desktop programs, but in fast-twitch shooters like quake. And this is compared to X11 with a compositing WM. So I'm not sure if that's it.

I'm hardly a Wayland expert though, I was just commenting regarding my own anecdotal experience.

Re:Emacs is special regarding UIs by seba_dos1 on Thursday September 10, 2020 @05:09PM (#24436588)
> Is that extra latency an inherent limitation of how Wayland is designed

No, most Wayland compositors can already skip composition and pass the window contents directly to the screen in case of displaying just a single fullscreen window. There is also work ongoing on utilizing hardware planes when possible, to skip composition and improve performance in other cases as well - going beyond what was ever possible on X. Grandparent comment is simply wrong.

Re:Emacs is special regarding UIs by voldacar on Thursday September 10, 2020 @06:03PM (#24437012)
Sorry but I have tried wayland multiple times (most recent ~12mo ago) and this has never been true in my experience. At least on my nvidia card. And the wayland people have been saying stuff like "oh we know better performance is possible, we just need to implement x, y, and z" for many years.
Re:Emacs is special regarding UIs by seba_dos1 on Thursday September 10, 2020 @05:13PM (#24436629)
It depends on the used compositor. In the wlroots land, everything you mentioned is already possible.
Re:Emacs is special regarding UIs by akho on Thursday September 10, 2020 @06:15AM (#24430770)
Network transparency has grown a lot more important for me over the last few years. It’s not really network transparency, though, it’s more vm/container transparency: if your dev environment is in a vm, and includes anything graphical, you need it. With WSL wayland is not even an option.
Re:Emacs is special regarding UIs by cmiles74 on Thursday September 10, 2020 @07:28AM (#24431224)
Microsoft is actively working on adding Wayland support to WSL2.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Microsof...